[Talk-transit] Summary of Public Transport Proposal Criticism -> a real example from Zürich

Michał Borsuk michal.borsuk at gmail.com
Wed Feb 9 22:12:43 GMT 2011

On 02/02/2011 03:14 PM, Dominik Mahrer (Teddy) wrote:
> On 02.02.2011 13:04, Michał Borsuk wrote:
>> Let's just get down to differences, I say your proposal is too
>> difficult. I've already spoken well about its data integrity, but new
>> users don't care about it. We need something that is as good as yours in
>> data integrity, and as easy to grasp as my proposals.
> Yours is good for beginners. And yours is also good for a white area
> mapper.
> Advanced mappers are not happy with it.

Enter scalability. Those two proposals mixed and *ordered* in a sensible 
manner can provide ease of use, as well as sufficient coverage of more 
advanced issues. For beginners level 1, for advanced users with big 
needs level three.

In other words, with very little cutting we'd simply need to order 
jobs/tasks for mappers from easy to advanced, write a wiki page, and 
there you go.

This sorting-and-ordering would be a major task, so it needs to be done 
in a quiet atmosphere.

> I tried to reduce my proposal to allow simpler cases. stop_area_group
> has been completely removed. A lot is now optional (stop_position,
> platform, stop_area, route_master). So it should be possible for
> beginners to learn step-by-step what they want/need.


Unfortunately, bad documentation seems to be a standard among FSF 
projects. I see few volunteers to do that work.

> And one relation per direction is easier to explain then forward/backward roles.

Yes, but it has a steeper curve if one relation per direction is 

Still, what about variations (like a,b,c,d, but under one line?)

> And I do not think we (mappers) can replace an existing public transport
> routing solution like hafas (too complex and too dynamic).

There have been calls for this. IMO it is feasible, but as a layer on 
OSM, not within.

By the way, what do you mean "dynamic"? I don't have a very good opinion 
of HAFAS, it does its job, but is very old, and IMHO at its edge of 
development due to silly data structures.

> The maximum
> possible in my opinion is to import this data into OSM.

That has been done.

> But with a single route relation solution I do not see such a solution.

Neither with one route per relation, but I've already covered the topic, 
exactly in this thread. You name a line in ZVV area, I provide you (if 
time permits) with routes and bus stops under that line.

In other words, automatic import of HAFAS route data to OSM is not 
possible, because under each line sits a collection of routes, minimum 4 
(unless the terminus is also the depot). Those less used must be removed 
from the import.

> Teddych


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