[Talk-transit] [Tagging] Public Transport Timetables

Tony Shield tony.shield999 at gmail.com
Wed Nov 7 11:24:18 UTC 2018


Hi

I have worked in data analysis for many years, recently become 
interested in PT and added routes to my locality. I look at PT 
timetables frequently as much of my travel is by PT.

My use case is that I want to find times and routes from A to B, I do 
not know the route numbers or their actual route. I expect the system to 
be able to give times and routes and any interchanges.

As a system I fail to see how putting the timing detail on each stop 
will enable me to efficiently perform that use case. From what is 
described system would have to identify route, then iterate route to 
check if destination is on route, if on route then  select time entry in 
A then a time entry in B and ASSUME that they both relate to the same 
journey and have been updated correctly. For connections/interchanges 
the same rules apply. Those assumptions make storing the data against a 
stop extraordinarily unreliable, the proposed method does not take 
shortened journeys - eg school or factory journeys where the whole route 
is not travelled  - into account.

I suggest that the best way to get timetable data is to replicate the 
present system that most PT organisations do - a table related to the 
route. A timetable could be associated with an OSM route. A system will 
be required to generate meaningful times and itineraries, so should we 
be asking those existing OSM routing people what  is their preferred way 
to store timetable data that can be updated reliably.

Here in the UK timetable data is in the public domain - is that the case 
in other places?

TonyS



On 06/11/2018 19:59, Jo wrote:
> Indeed, a mapper who wants to add this and who can't find the 
> information on the internet or in a booklet, would have travel to the 
> first stop, take note of all the departure times and then establish 
> the deltas between all the stops of the itinerary.
> If that's the case, such a mapper would probably better use the tags 
> based method on the route relations.
>
> It all depends on how much detail you want to add (and maintain in the 
> long run).
>
> Another weakness of the relation pet stop/route pair method is that it 
> will be very hard to encode the exceptions; not on Wednesdays, only on 
> Fridays, etc.
>
> Jo
>
> Op di 6 nov. 2018 om 20:22 schreef djakk djakk <djakk.djakk at gmail.com 
> <mailto:djakk.djakk at gmail.com>>:
>
>     Ok I see.
>
>     I am still a bit reluctant to your proposal since the travelling
>     time between 2 stops can vary during the day, especially for train
>     routes.
>     Ok there is the possibility of adding a new timetable relation ...
>
>     Moreover, I think that data inputs from the ground can not be done
>     with your proposal (it needs to know the timetable for the whole
>     line), we’ll depend on GTFS file actually :-/
>
>     Julien “djakk”
>
>
>
>     Le mar. 6 nov. 2018 à 19:27, Jo <winfixit at gmail.com
>     <mailto:winfixit at gmail.com>> a écrit :
>
>         Yes, very hard to debug and we already established some change
>         every few months. So after a change from the operator. One
>         traveler will update one of those schedules, Another may do so
>         for 3 stops down the line, in the mean time the stops in
>         between and after are not updated yet. A maintenance
>         nightmare. The way I proposed it, suffers less from that
>         problem. When timetables change it's usually that trips are
>         added or removed or their start time changes slightly. The
>         time to get from one stop to the next will remain constant,
>         most of the time.
>
>         Jo
>
>         Op di 6 nov. 2018 om 18:40 schreef djakk djakk
>         <djakk.djakk at gmail.com <mailto:djakk.djakk at gmail.com>>:
>
>             I don’t get it ...
>
>             With my point of view, one route with 15 stops has 15
>             timetables, each timetable describes the arrival time and
>             the departure time of several trips at the stop.
>
>             There must be the same number of trips along the stops’
>             timetables. (Otherwise this is an other route).
>
>             You mean, if somebody messed up and add an extra trip
>             inside a timetable, this would be hard to figure ?
>
>             Julien “djakk”
>
>
>             Le mar. 6 nov. 2018 à 18:30, Jo <winfixit at gmail.com
>             <mailto:winfixit at gmail.com>> a écrit :
>
>                 If you have a single one for a stop/route pair, no
>                 problem. As soon as you have a few hundred and the
>                 information in them starts to conflict with other
>                 another timetable relation for the same route it will
>                 be extremely hard to figure out where it went wrong.
>
>                 Polyglot
>
>                 Op di 6 nov. 2018 om 17:08 schreef djakk djakk
>                 <djakk.djakk at gmail.com <mailto:djakk.djakk at gmail.com>>:
>
>                     In which case a timetable per stop and per route
>                     is unmaintable ?
>
>                     Julien “djakk”
>
>
>                     Le mar. 6 nov. 2018 à 16:59, djakk djakk
>                     <djakk.djakk at gmail.com
>                     <mailto:djakk.djakk at gmail.com>> a écrit :
>
>                         I think it is important to have an osm object
>                         describing the timetable user-oriented for
>                         simple editing without any tool.
>                         The mapper is at a bus stop, takes a picture
>                         of the timetable, can import it later in osm
>                         without the need of any extra tool.
>                         Validator can be inside a tool.
>
>                         Julien « djakk »
>
>
>                         Le mar. 6 nov. 2018 à 16:46, djakk djakk
>                         <djakk.djakk at gmail.com
>                         <mailto:djakk.djakk at gmail.com>> a écrit :
>
>                             Almost that ! Sometimes bus stops does not
>                             have their official timetable, the user
>                             have to refer to the closest previous bus
>                             stop having an official timetable. So this
>                             kind of bus stop may not have a timetable
>                             in osm (except an osm mapper really wants
>                             to put it into osm, knowing per habits the
>                             schedule).
>
>
>                             Julien « djakk »
>
>
>
>                             Le mar. 6 nov. 2018 à 16:28, Jo
>                             <winfixit at gmail.com
>                             <mailto:winfixit at gmail.com>> a écrit :
>
>                                 You mean per stop/route pair? That's
>                                 an incredible s amount of relations!
>                                 It seems to me that it would be a
>                                 nighmare to try and maintain it that
>                                 way. At first sight it seems simpler,
>                                 but with the new proposal i came up
>                                 with, you can see how the stops of a
>                                 variation in itinerary tie together.
>
>                                 If the vehicle remains in the station
>                                 longer, the roles could become
>                                 00:30-00:35 instead of simply 00:35
>                                 for the departure offset to the time
>                                 the vehicle left at its first stop.
>
>                                 Seeing the stops in the timetable
>                                 relation in the order they are served
>                                 also enables comparing this with the
>                                 stops sequence in the route relation
>                                 they refer to, adding additional
>                                 possibilities for validation of the data.
>
>                                 The stops in a timetable sequence
>                                 should always be a subset of the stops
>                                 in a route relation and appear in the
>                                 same order.
>
>                                 Polyglot
>
>
>                                 Op di 6 nov. 2018 om 16:07 schreef
>                                 djakk djakk <djakk.djakk at gmail.com
>                                 <mailto:djakk.djakk at gmail.com>>:
>
>                                     I’ll agree with Leif, having a
>                                     timetable relation per stop is
>                                     better.
>
>
>                                     Yes Leif, there can be a delay
>                                     expressed in minutes instead of an
>                                     arrival-departure pair of time.
>
>                                     Julien « djakk »
>
>
>
>                                     Le mar. 6 nov. 2018 à 16:04, djakk
>                                     djakk <djakk.djakk at gmail.com
>                                     <mailto:djakk.djakk at gmail.com>> a
>                                     écrit :
>
>                                         In order to reduce the length
>                                         of the value of the
>                                         departures= tag, should we
>                                         allow this kind of abstraction
>                                         level : departures=5:35 ; 6:35
>                                         ; [7-19]:[05;35] ; 20:35 ;
>                                         21:35  ?
>
>                                         Julien « djakk »
>
>
>                                         Le mar. 6 nov. 2018 à 15:41,
>                                         djakk djakk
>                                         <djakk.djakk at gmail.com
>                                         <mailto:djakk.djakk at gmail.com>>
>                                         a écrit :
>
>                                             Martin, maybe locals do
>                                             know their bus stop
>                                             timetable, as they always
>                                             use the service they may
>                                             memorize the schedules ... ?
>
>                                             Julien
>
>
>                                             Le lun. 5 nov. 2018 à
>                                             17:08, Jo
>                                             <winfixit at gmail.com
>                                             <mailto:winfixit at gmail.com>>
>                                             a écrit :
>
>                                                 Hi Leif,
>
>                                                 You made me do it! :-)
>                                                 I sort of stole your
>                                                 proposal and started
>                                                 creating a new one. It
>                                                 differs in rather
>                                                 important ways from
>                                                 your proposal, so I
>                                                 preferred not
>                                                 modifying your wiki
>                                                 page. I also think
>                                                 it's important to
>                                                 decouple the (voting
>                                                 for a) full timetable
>                                                 solution from the
>                                                 solution where tags
>                                                 are added to indicate
>                                                 interval during
>                                                 'opening_hours' or a
>                                                 route, which is a lot
>                                                 more likely to be
>                                                 accepted.
>
>                                                 So here goes:
>                                                 https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/Public_transport_timetables
>
>                                                 Please let me know
>                                                 what you think. What I
>                                                 still haven't figured
>                                                 out yet is how to
>                                                 differ weekdays that
>                                                 fall in school holiday
>                                                 periods from "normal"
>                                                 weekdays. So work in
>                                                 progress.
>
>                                                 Polyglot
>
>                                                 Op za 3 nov. 2018 om
>                                                 16:25 schreef Leif
>                                                 Rasmussen
>                                                 <354lbr at gmail.com
>                                                 <mailto:354lbr at gmail.com>>:
>
>                                                     Polyglot:
>
>                                                     I think that
>                                                     having a timetable
>                                                     relation for each
>                                                     stop is less
>                                                     complicated than
>                                                     having one per
>                                                     route.  There are
>                                                     several advantages
>                                                     to this:
>                                                     1) People can
>                                                     easily add a
>                                                     single relation at
>                                                     a time, rather
>                                                     than having to do
>                                                     the entire line at
>                                                     one time.  This
>                                                     could make it much
>                                                     easier to, for
>                                                     example, have a
>                                                     StreetComplete
>                                                     quest asking "What
>                                                     are the arrival
>                                                     times of bus X at
>                                                     this bus stop?" 
>                                                     iD could also have
>                                                     a field at bus
>                                                     stops with
>                                                     "arrivals for each
>                                                     parent bus route"
>                                                     that would allow
>                                                     people to
>                                                     seamlessly create
>                                                     timetable
>                                                     relations.  It
>                                                     also makes more
>                                                     features possible
>                                                     in the future,
>                                                     such as additional
>                                                     tags to each
>                                                     timetable.
>                                                     2) The system is
>                                                     easier for newbies
>                                                     to learn to use.
>
>                                                     The disadvantage
>                                                     is that there are
>                                                     now a ton of
>                                                     relations per bus
>                                                     / train / subway
>                                                     route. Creating
>                                                     these could made
>                                                     easier by a new
>                                                     JOSM plugin. 
>                                                     Also, if someone
>                                                     wanted to delete
>                                                     all timetable
>                                                     relations that are
>                                                     part of a route,
>                                                     they could simply
>                                                     use this overpass
>                                                     query to download
>                                                     the data into JOSM
>                                                     and then delete
>                                                     all of the
>                                                     timetable
>                                                     relations:
>                                                     https://overpass-turbo.eu/s/Dlf
>
>
>                                                     If people really
>                                                     prefer a single
>                                                     timetable relation
>                                                     for each route,
>                                                     then I will go
>                                                     with that.
>
>                                                     Julien:
>                                                     Why not have a
>                                                     "delay"="<amount
>                                                     of time between
>                                                     arrival and
>                                                     departure at this
>                                                     platform>" tag
>                                                     instead of
>                                                     separate
>                                                     arrivals/departures
>                                                     tags?
>
>                                                     Thanks,
>                                                     Leif Rasmussen
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