[Talk-transit] Ideas for a simplified public transportation scheme

Markus selfishseahorse at gmail.com
Thu May 9 21:03:52 UTC 2019

On Tue, 7 May 2019 at 21:15, Jarek PiĆ³rkowski <jarek at piorkowski.ca> wrote:
> 7c. From what I'm understand, this bus stop node does not have to be
> connected to a pedestrian highway either, with routers presumably
> jumping from the nearest highway?

Yes, this is what OsmAnd does.

> 8. A stop_location (to use ptv2 terminology) on the way that vehicles
> travel on could help with things like calculating and showing the
> likely route the bus will take, but this can also be calculated
> without the stop_location node by projection of other stop objects
> onto the way

It can be calculated. So why complicating mapping and maintaining
public transportation routes needlessly? :)

> 8b. Stephen initially said "we need stop positions so routers can get
> people from stop to stop on the buses/trains"; a subsequent message at
> 06 May 2019 13:53:10 -0500 (if I understood correctly) said that
> stop_position can be optional in cases of simple geometry (which is
> presumably vast majority of them)
> 8c. What changes would people like to make? Clearer guidance as to
> when stop_position and stop_area might be needed for buses - in cases
> like ambiguous geometry due to multiple parallel highways? Or would
> people prefer to ignore routing of buses between stops and advocate
> for removal of stop_positions in all cases?

Even if the stop (the waiting area) is mapped as a way or area, its
centroid can be calculated and projected on the road. In most cases,
parallel roads shouldn't be a problem either, as only one of them
would be in the route relation.

> 9. There are some cases that do not cleanly fit into hw=bus_stop
> "PTv1" tagging, for example a sign-only stop served by both buses and
> trams, or a waiting platform served by both buses and trams
> 9a. Because we must retain hw=bus_stop per #3 and #5, any
> accommodation of these cases must either be initially of tags, or
> guidance on how to place highway=bus_stop tags

If we go for the "improved PTv1" solution, my suggestion [1] was to
place both highway=bus_stop and railway=tram_stop beside the road.
Thus, highway=bus_stop and railway=tram_stop can and should be
combined on one node.

[1]: https://lists.openstreetmap.org/pipermail/talk-transit/2019-April/002052.html

> 10. Meaning of public_transit=platform tag is dependent on context, it
> unifies/duplicates some existing tags, arguably it sometimes describes
> imaginary things, and it is disliked by many editors

As i understand it [2], public_transit=platform does not describe
imaginary things. On a node, it means the waiting area of a stop
(i.e., it is equivalent to highway=bus_stop or railway=tram_stop), and
on a way or area, it means a real platform that acts as a stop (i.e.,
it is a combination of highway=bus_stop/railway=tram_stop and

However, in my opinion it would have been better to create a tag like
public_transport=stop that -- as with all other tags -- always
(regardless of whether used on a node, way or area) means the same
thing (waiting area of a stop) and that could be used in combination
with highway=platform/railway=platform if there is a platform.

[2]: https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/w/index.php?oldid=625726

> 12. Many of the currently mapped tram systems have a railway=tram_stop
> + public_transport=stop_position node on the rail, so we should
> probably not change this scheme either without good reason

I think that a simpler mapping and maintaining of the routes as well
as a better routing are good reasons enough. :)

> 13. There is currently no clear way for tagging stops that also have
> physical platforms, except for PTv2
> 13a. This exists as physical feature in real world and should be
> supported, in a manner compatible with platform-less stops
> 13b. Should we add bus_stop/tram_stop on one of the nodes of the
> platform way [4]? Next to the platform? As pointed out by Markus, we
> can't do what might be the most intuitive method of the platform
> way/area sharing bus_stop tag because the platform is also a highway=
> tag.

In my opinion, if we decide to stick with PTv1 tags, the best way
would be to add a highway=bus_stop or railway=tram_stop in the middle
of the highway/railway=platform way or area.



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