[Talk-us] Turn restriction dispute FHP

Michael Patrick geodesy99 at gmail.com
Mon Feb 11 22:20:07 GMT 2013

> Someone better add the routing restriction to this:
> https://maps.google.com/maps?q=dale+mabry+and+ehrlich,+tampa&hl=en&ll=28.08305,-82.505677&spn=0.000588,0.000426&sll=28.083838,-82.505216&sspn=0.002339,0.001706&t=h&hnear=Dale+Mabry+Hwy+%26+Ehrlich+Rd,+Tampa,+Florida+33618&z=21
> Along with the thousands of other places where this occurs.

Not necessarily - it is the 'system' of markings in a particular situation,
See offline comments below.


---------- Forwarded message ----------
From: Michael Patrick <geodesy99 at gmail.com>
Date: Mon, Feb 11, 2013 at 1:55 PM
Subject: Re: [Talk-us] Turn restriction dispute FHP
To: Nathan Edgars II <neroute2 at gmail.com>

> That passage from the Florida Driver Handbook is not based in law, but
seems to have been made up. Florida has adopted the MUTCD, which defines a
single white line as having no restrictive meaning. The FHP's ignorance of
the law is troubling but not surprising.

The engineer here says there is no one specific meaning for a single white
line ( 'sort of'', I think what you mean). That being said, it's the full *
system* of markers that deliver the intent and meaning, a single white line
can appear in many different places, to restrict movement in and out from
'trap lanes', or more specifically, when it is used in sequence with normal
dashed line, to close dashes (warning), to a solid line (lane restriction,
and eventually to the gore triangle. He said the solid white line is for
all intents and purposes regarded as part of the gore marking and is
illegal to cross ( even though it is not 'doubled' as mentioned below). See
http://mutcd.fhwa.dot.gov/htm/2009r1r2/part3/fig3b_08_1_longdesc.htm ) The
MUTEC is a design guideline, state and local standards can supersede or
deviate with their own published standards, and there is a huge amount of
legacy markings which are gradually upgraded during maintenance. Law
enforcement 'interprets' MUTEC in conjunction with other guidelines ("Uniform
Vehicle Code (UVC)" from the National Committee on Uniform Traffic Laws ),
and local ordinance.

For what it's worth, if I had pulled off on the exit, checked my trailer
lights, and proceeded to the top of the lamp, I probably would have went
straight through, because of the double signal configuration and position (
unless both green were left arrows), and the gore line isn't awfully
visible, and traffic probably would have been stopped on all three lanes on
Buena Vista Drive. Having done it once, though, I personally wouldn't do it

> ... it's a little ridiculous that this dispute is going so far that
anyone even consulted an expert.

Ooops! Sorry, I talked to an expert. Again. Sigh. I should have realized
that the routing in question is transecting the intersection of two
alternate realities, OSM and also within a mile of The Magic of Disney
Animation. So instead of the Florida Highway Patrol, I've forwarded the
question to the staff at the co-located Twilight Zone Theater and the cast
and characters of
a more OSM suitable answer.

> Obviously NE2 is wrong; we get it.

Even a stopped clock is right twice a day. (Once if it's showing 24 ... )


Not exactly the same situation, but related:


   1. *Q: Does a solid white lane line prohibit crossing to change lanes on
   the approach to an intersection?*

*A:* MUTCD Section 3B.04 says to use a single solid white line to
"discourage" crossing the lane line and a double white line to prohibit
crossing it. A single solid white line is used for a variety of lines that
drivers should be discouraged from crossing in "normal" situations but
which drivers do need to cross in some situations. An example is the "edge
line"---the line that separates the rightmost travel lane from the
shoulder. The single solid white line discourages crossing onto the
shoulder but does not prohibit it because it is obviously desirable and/or
necessary to cross it in some situations, such as an emergency stop. The
MUTCD sets the national standards for pavement markings, but it does not
establish what the laws of the individual States may define as the legal
meanings of various types of lines in each State. Some States may have laws
that prohibit crossing a single solid white line in specific circumstances.
Some states also have laws that go beyond just the meaning of the lines, by
making certain driving maneuvers illegal under certain situations
regardless of the markings, such as changing lanes when it is "unsafe to do


   1. *Q: How far in advance of a lane drop should the special lane drop
   markings begin?*

*A:* For a lane drop on a freeway or expressway, Section 3B.04 and Figure
3B-10 both note that a lane drop marking consisting of a wide, white dotted
line, 3 feet in length with a 9 feet gap separation, shall be used and that
it should begin at least ½ mile in advance of the theoretical gore of the
freeway exit ramp. For lane drops on conventional roads, where a through
lane becomes a "trap lane" (that is, a turn only lane), Section 3B.04
states that a lane drop marking consisting of a wide, white dotted line, 3
feet in length with a 9 feet gap separation shall also be used and should
begin a distance in advance of the intersection that is determined by
engineering judgment as suitable to enable drivers who do not desire to
make the mandatory turn to move out of the lane being dropped prior to
reaching the queue of vehicles that are waiting to make the turn. The lane
drop marking should begin no closer to the intersection than the most
upstream regulatory or warning sign associated with the lane drop. Section
3B.04 also requires the use of a wide, white dotted lane line for auxiliary
lanes of 2 miles or less between interchanges and for auxiliary lanes
between intersections of 1 mile or less (see Figure 3B-10.) It is also
important to note that where the number of through travel lanes is reduced
between interchanges or intersections, that is not a "lane drop" but rather
that is considered a "lane reduction transition", the markings for which
are prescribed in Section 3B.09 and Figure 3B-14.
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