[Talk-us] Walmart Import

Fri Dec 22 13:13:07 UTC 2017

Hi list,

I wanted to remind everyone that we're all trying to make the map better
here. Please be careful with the words you choose to use so that they
aren't condescending or attacking.

For example, in this message from Peter it's very easy to read the
sentences about opening hours as a personal attack on Ilya and not a new
critique of the proposal. It might have been better to write:

"I'm worried that this import will replace more specific holiday opening
hours with the generic year round string. Will the import process include a
check to make sure the object hasn't changed since you ran the conflation
so that changes like this don't get overwritten?"

There's no need to make the claim that the import gets to have more weight
(no one said it did) and there's no need to direct the message at Ilya. As
has been discussed before, he's helping Brandify with tools.

Happy holidays,
Ian

On Dec 22, 2017 01:47, "Peter Dobratz" <peter at dobratz.us> wrote:

Ilya,

I'm trying to wrap my head around how making this a "frictionless series of
imports" is going to work.  So if a local mapper edits details on a
Walmart, those details could potentially be swiftly overwritten with your
data?

As you can see, the opening hours for next week are non-standard due to the
Christmas holiday.  What if someone decides they want to add that level of
detail to the opening_hours tag:
opening_hours=00:00-01:00,05:00-24:00; Dec 24 5:00-18:00; Dec 25 off; Dec
26 06:00-24:00

How long until you automatically replace this with "05:00-01:00" ?

Do you see the problem with doing that?

As you say there are differences of opinion in how things are tagged.  Why
does your opinion get to have more weight?

Peter

On Thu, Dec 21, 2017 at 1:12 AM, Ilya Zverev <ilya at zverev.info> wrote:

> Hi Peter,
>
> Thank you for suggestions.
>
> First, the highlighted tag value is what goes into OSM. In your case, the
> import will keep the shop=department_store.
>
> Regarding updates to opening_hours, you are suggesting I parse each
> opening_hours value and then compare these? It would be quite hard and in
> my opinion excessive. With the two values being equivalent, I don't how the
> data becomes worse. A few times I omitted "Mo-Su", I was being told it's
> better to specify the weekdays, so it is again a matter of opinion.
>
> In your example, you override the definition for Monday, so it doesn't
> demonstrate anything besides how complex the opening_hours notation is.
>
> The rest I answered in imports@, and some of it goes against what other
> community members suggest, so again I can conclude that is a matter of
> opinion and not important one way or another:
>
> * URL is provided by Walmart and is much better than what we have.
> /whats-new can be fixed later, and does not really matter, because it still
> takes to a store page.
> * addr:full is provided by Walmart and may be used to improve addressing
> where there are no addr:* tags. Sorry the importing script cannot do
> conditional tagging.
> * operator was recommended by community members, and is a good tag to
> filter all Walmarts.
> * ref:walmart will be used for updating the data. Ref may refer not only
> to a store, but to a building or another feature.
>
> Please understand that this is not a one-off handcrafted import. We are
> working on a process for frictionless series of imports, with regular
> updates later on. I understand you have mapped a Walmart and feel
> protective of it. I felt the same a few years into OSM, because everything
> you add to the map is important. With this import, I believe it does not
> make the data worse. More attributes is not bad, even if some of these are
> redundant. The main thing is, until now there were zero mappers who care
> about keeping all the Walmart stores in OSM up-to-date, and after, there
> will be more. To me, that is a good thing.
>
> Thanks,
> Ilya
>
>
> > 21 дек. 2017 г., в 1:22, Peter Dobratz <peter at dobratz.us> написал(а):
> >
> > Ilya,
> >
> > Here's a Walmart that's been built in the last few years I recently
> added to OSM:
> >
> > http://audit.osmz.ru/browse/walmart/5935
> >
> > What's currently in OSM represents my own mapping style, but I think
> it's worth discussing the differences before you change them across the
> whole country.
> >
> >
> > If I read this correctly, you are planning on changing the top-level tag
> from shop=department_store to shop=supermarket.  I have been using
> shop=supermarket only for Walmarts branded as "Walmart Neighborhood Market"
> and using shop=department_store for all other Walmarts.  For me the main
> distinction is that most Walmarts have departments for things like clothing
> and electronics that don't exist in the "Walmart Neighborhood Market"
> stores.
> >
> >
> > You are proposing changing the opening_hours tag from
> "00:00-01:00,05:00-24:00" to "Mo-Su 05:00-01:00".  When I'm adding opening
> hours, I avoid timespans that cross midnight as there is some difference of
> opinion as to what those timespans actually represent.  I think most people
> would say that these two opening hours are equivalent, but if you were to
> have something like "Mo-Sa 05:00-01:00; Su 10:00-22:00" this illustrates
> the problem with different interpretations of times that span midnight:
> > http://openingh.openstreetmap.de/evaluation_tool/?EXP=Mo-Sa%
> 2005%3A00-01%3A00%3B%20Su%2010%3A00-22%3A00
> > http://projets.pavie.info/yohours/?oh=Mo-Sa%2005:00-01:00;%
> 20Su%2010:00-22:00
> > I also omit "Mo-Su" when writing opening_hours as, in my opinion, this
> doesn't add value to the data and from a human-readable perspective it
> looks very similar to "Mo-Sa" which of course means something different.
> Another problem with "Mo-Su" is that it is equivalent to "Su-Sa" or any of
> the other 7 possible variations.
> > One of the problems with the opening_hours tag in general is that there
> are many ways of representing the same set of opening hours and I'm not
> aware of any efforts to establish a canonical representation for
> opening_hours.  Can you avoid updating opening_hours if the new value is
> equivalent to the old value?
> >
> >
> > For the website tag, I prefer to use simple URLs:
> > http://www.walmart.com/
> > https://www.walmart.com/store/5935/tigard-or/whats-new
> > The advantage to using the basic URL is that it will still continue to
> work in the future even if Walmart decides to reformat their webiste.  The
> disadvantage is that it does not go to a page specific to this particular
> store.  Reading through the imports list, I see there is already some
> discussion about whether to use the "whats-new" or "details" URL for each
> store.  What happens in a year when the "whats-new" URL no longer works?
> >
> >
> > I would omit the addr:full tag at least on objects where addr:street and
> addr:housenumber already exist.
> >
> >
> > I would also omit the operator=Walmart tag.  I only use operator if the
> value of the operator is different from the value of name.
> >
> >
> > The object already has ref=5935.  The ref:walmart=5935 tag is
> superfluous and I would omit it.  It's fairly well established practice to
> use the plain ref tag for mapping store identifiers.  We don't need a
> separate ref:* tag for every store.
> >
> >
> > Overall, I think you need to put in more effort to determine whether the
> data that you are using to overwrite existing OSM data is in fact better.
> Since you want to get this done "before the New Year", maybe it would be
> better to just leave existing OSM tags alone for now and then manually
> check them against your dataset later.
> >
> > I don't have any specific examples handy, but I've seen cases where the
> data on the company website is wrong for things like postal code, house
> numbers, or streets.  Sometimes it seems that companies change their
> addresses to get their geocoding service of choice to put the placemarker
> in the right spot, so I would be especially wary of changing existing OSM
> data.
> >
> > Peter
> >
> >
> > On Wed, Dec 20, 2017 at 11:45 AM, Ilya Zverev <ilya at zverev.info> wrote:
> > Hi,
> >
> > As some of you know, Brandify company wants to import all the Walmart
> locations in the US into OpenStreetMap. They have full permission to do
> that. See the message from their VP Product, Damian, for more detailed
> explanation:
> >
> > https://lists.openstreetmap.org/pipermail/imports/2017-Decem
> ber/005279.html
> >
> > After a brief discussion on the imports@ list, they made a few proposed
> changes, and I re-uploaded the result to my imports validation website.
> Could you please look through a couple dozen points, to ensure they will be
> added to correct locations with correct tags? The more the better — I plan
> to to a few hundred myself:
> >
> > http://audit.osmz.ru/project/walmart
> >
> > I really hope we can finish this before the New Year.
> >
> > Thanks,
> > Ilya
> >
> > _______________________________________________
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> > Talk-us at openstreetmap.org
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> >
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>
>

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