[Talk-us] Talk-us Digest, Vol 127, Issue 11

[Simon Poole]

Just so that there is no confusion wrt Riot and Matrix:

- Riot is the most popular client (for web, android, ios) that speaks
the matrix protocol, but there are others including sdks for many platforms.

- the client connects to a "homeserver" that implement the matrix
protocol and connects to other such servers (see
https://matrix.org/blog/home/).

It is not completely clear, at least to me, if there would be any
advantage to the OSMF or OSM-something running their own homeserver
instead of just using the publicly available ones, but it is something
that could be fairly easily be done.

Simon


Am 13.06.2018 um 17:11 schrieb teslas_moustache:
> In the debate between Slack vs. Riot, I would definitely go Riot. I am
> so tired of Slack for so many reasons.
>
>
> On 06/13/2018 07:00 AM, talk-us-request at openstreetmap.org wrote:
>> Send Talk-us mailing list submissions to
>> 	talk-us at openstreetmap.org
>>
>> To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit
>> 	https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
>> or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to
>> 	talk-us-request at openstreetmap.org
>>
>> You can reach the person managing the list at
>> 	talk-us-owner at openstreetmap.org
>>
>> When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific
>> than "Re: Contents of Talk-us digest..."
>>
>>
>> Today's Topics:
>>
>>    1. Re: Slack: Do we need an Alternative (was Planning an import
>>       in Price George...) (Marc Gemis)
>>    2. Re: Slack: Do we need an Alternative (was Planning an import
>>       in Price George...) (Robert Yaklin)
>>    3. Re: Slack: Do we need an Alternative (was Planning an import
>>       in Price George...) (Marc Gemis)
>>
>>
>> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>>
>> Message: 1
>> Date: Wed, 13 Jun 2018 05:47:27 +0200
>> From: Marc Gemis <marc.gemis at gmail.com>
>> To: Mike Dupont <jamesmikedupont at googlemail.com>
>> Cc: Simon Poole <simon at poole.ch>, "talk-us at openstreetmap.org"
>> 	<talk-us at openstreetmap.org>
>> Subject: Re: [Talk-us] Slack: Do we need an Alternative (was Planning
>> 	an import in Price George...)
>> Message-ID:
>> 	<CAJKJX-QrJOAyyDojck+uph27vBGE_9v_rtag36=b5W0Zq1J_Nw at mail.gmail.com>
>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"
>>
>> The Belgian community lives now mostly on Riot, we do have an IRC
>> bridge and different channels to discuss dev or landuse related stuff.
>>
>> The main drawback is the lack of threads (ever tried to follow 2
>> discussions taking place at the same time, let alone read was said
>> during the day ?). The not so great search  is another problem.
>>
>> But for a quick question (with a photo) it's great.
>>
>> just my .5 cent
>>
>> m
>>
>> On Sun, Jun 10, 2018 at 3:13 PM, Mike Dupont
>> <jamesmikedupont at googlemail.com> wrote:
>>> Hi all,
>>> I have had good experience with riot.im matrix.org it is open source, mobile
>>> friendly and has an irc gateway.
>>>
>>> On Sun, Jun 10, 2018 at 3:27 AM, Simon Poole <simon at poole.ch> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Am 10.06.2018 um 05:21 schrieb Bryan Housel:
>>>>>> I'm also interested in how others feel about Slack. Is it good for the
>>>>>> community or should we look elsewhere?
>>>>> Glad you asked!  I think Slack has changed the way I work for the
>>>>> better.
>>>>>
>>>>> Here are some advantages..
>>>>> * lower barrier to entry for less technical folks
>>>>> * great mobile experience
>>>>> * good for sharing files / screenshots
>>>>> * works well for both sync and async chat
>>>>> * emoji reactions, can be used to both cut down on noise comments but
>>>>> also mark things as read (like our welcome users feed)
>>>>> * integration with basically everything (GitHub, Stripe, RSS anything
>>>>> you want really)
>>>>> * easy to start focused public or private channels and pull a few people
>>>>> in to a discussion
>>>>> * ability to mute and set availability times
>>>>> * user profiles
>>>>> * decent search
>>>> You can have all of that with a number of alternatives, matrix for
>>>> completely open and free, mattermost and so on for less ...
>>>> .. and these alternatives actually connect with other stuff (say irc).
>>>>
>>>>> * everyone is on it
>>>> That's a bit of a self fulfilling prophecy after you've essentially
>>>> force migrated everybody there and then cut the ties with any other
>>>> competing media (in OSM) so that you can have your nice walled garden.
>>>>
>>>> SImon
>>>>
>>>>> I really can’t imagine going back to something else.  I’d happily pay
>>>>> for it if they asked me to.
>>>>>
>>>>> Anyway, I felt it important to speak up because I’ve noticed a very
>>>>> common situation when asking for people’s opinion about something, the
>>>>> people who are happy will stay silent, and the few who have a problem will
>>>>> be the ones who respond.
>>>>>
>>>>> There are currently over 800 people on the OSM-US Slack, and over 3000
>>>>> on the GIS Spatial Community Slack.  I have no idea how many people are
>>>>> subscribed to the talk-us mailing list.
>>>>>
>>>>> I don’t think we should get rid of mailing lists.  We should still copy
>>>>> things to the talk-us mailing that affect the entire US community.
>>>>>
>>>>> Just my thoughts
>>>>> Thanks, Bryan
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> Talk-us mailing list
>>>>> Talk-us at openstreetmap.org
>>>>> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> Talk-us mailing list
>>>> Talk-us at openstreetmap.org
>>>> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
>>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>> James Michael DuPont
>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Talk-us mailing list
>>> Talk-us at openstreetmap.org
>>> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
>>>
>>
>> ------------------------------
>>
>> Message: 2
>> Date: Tue, 12 Jun 2018 21:43:34 -0500
>> From: Robert Yaklin <ryaklin at gmail.com>
>> To: talk-us at openstreetmap.org
>> Subject: Re: [Talk-us] Slack: Do we need an Alternative (was Planning
>> 	an import in Price George...)
>> Message-ID:
>> 	<CABSELfHLdmsqf8R=HPrXnR_cao+_YH4PULj8kz3WyO490rmW4g at mail.gmail.com>
>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
>>
>> And then you have people like myself who were new to OSM and reading the
>> docs that say to join mailing list and to send email to mailing list before
>> doing proposed import of data and get no reply. Maybe the people who would
>> have replied use other channels and not the mailing list. In any case it
>> leaves me not feeling particularly welcome. Nor does it encourage me to
>> invest my time into mapping. At least now that this slack discussion is
>> happening I have some explanation of why it seemed not many people
>> participate in the mailing list. I'll never voluntarily install or use
>> slack and had never heard of it before this discussion.
>>
>> On Tue, Jun 12, 2018, 7:36 PM Ian Dees <ian.dees at gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> On Tue, Jun 12, 2018 at 5:10 PM Greg Troxel <gdt at lexort.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Martijn van Exel <m at rtijn.org> writes:
>>>>
>>>>> Hi Simon,
>>>>>
>>>>>>> * everyone is on it
>>>>>> That's a bit of a self fulfilling prophecy after you've essentially
>>>>>> force migrated everybody there and then cut the ties with any other
>>>>>> competing media (in OSM) so that you can have your nice walled garden.
>>>>> I would argue that it is a good thing that people converge on one
>>>>> platform to talk about OSM. Whether Slack remains the right choice is
>>>>> something we can debate. It was really the only feasible choice that
>>>>> was available to us at the time we (OSM US) felt the need for a better
>>>>> platform for conversations. Slack has done its job as a for-profit
>>>>> non-open company well in the sense that we're somewhat locked in
>>>>> now. I dislike the fact that it is a walled garden, and becoming more
>>>>> so, as much as anyone who values free and open data and software. If
>>>>> there is a practical way to improve that situation, we should pursue
>>>>> it.
>>>>>
>>>>> Finally, please stop your unpleasant trolling, it has no place in OSM.
>>>> Slack is a company with terms some don't like.  People should not have
>>>> to enter into a contract with some random company to participate in OSM.
>>>>
>>>> I for one am not on the osmf-us slack, and am likely to continue not
>>>> being on it.  So "everyone is on it" is demonstrably false.
>>>>
>>>> Another issue is that we are building open data, and open data and open
>>>> source go hand in hand philosophically.  So it is not surprising that
>>>> members of the OSM community object to proprietary communications
>>>> systems.  It is surprising that a non-trivial number of OSM people think
>>>> proprietary communication systems are ok.
>>>>
>>>> There is matrix; I haven't tried that, and I've heard positive reports
>>>> about self-hosted mattermost.
>>>>
>>>> Another possibility, which might fix the terms issue but not the
>>>> proprietary issue, would be for OSMF-US to enter into an agreement with
>>>> Slack, Inc. in such a way that OSM people do not have to enter into a
>>>> contract, much as if they were employees.
>>>>
>>> As we've said multiple times in this thread, it's totally OK for there to
>>> be multiple avenues of communication in the OSM community. That has always
>>> been the case and will continue being the case. If a group of community
>>> members want to get together on a communications channel, they should do
>>> that. It's especially OK when the communication channels are so different
>>> (like Slack/IRC vs. mailing lists). OSM US doesn't require anyone to use
>>> any particular communication channel and a large swath of the US's most
>>> engaged mappers are on several (mailing lists, slack, IRC, forum, etc.).
>>>
>>> Also, I don't think it's surprising that a vast array of different kinds
>>> of people participate in OpenStreetMap. Some of those people are interested
>>> and passionate in OpenStreetMap because of its relation to the Open Source
>>> movement, and some people want to contribute to a community project. I'm
>>> sure there are plenty of other reasons why people are part of this
>>> community – we should be welcoming to all of them, not just the ones that
>>> are passionate about Open Source.
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Talk-us mailing list
>>> Talk-us at openstreetmap.org
>>> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
>>>
>> -------------- next part --------------
>> An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
>> URL: <http://lists.openstreetmap.org/pipermail/talk-us/attachments/20180612/4b3f12d7/attachment-0001.html>
>>
>> ------------------------------
>>
>> Message: 3
>> Date: Wed, 13 Jun 2018 06:55:43 +0200
>> From: Marc Gemis <marc.gemis at gmail.com>
>> To: ryaklin at gmail.com
>> Cc: "talk-us at openstreetmap.org Openstreetmap"
>> 	<talk-us at openstreetmap.org>
>> Subject: Re: [Talk-us] Slack: Do we need an Alternative (was Planning
>> 	an import in Price George...)
>> Message-ID:
>> 	<CAJKJX-TO4wy5xVkKTgZib2pxM4-CSKPsVD-8A_7z7n6VBjRSpQ at mail.gmail.com>
>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"
>>
>> Robert,
>>
>> I quickly looked at the talk-us and talk-us-import archives
>> (https://lists.openstreetmap.org/pipermail/talk-us/  and
>> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/pipermail/imports-us/ ) I do not see
>> any mail from you in April/May/June. Did you send the email about your
>> import request to one of those mailing lists ?
>> Since your email is not in the achives (as far as I can see), it
>> explains why you did not get any reaction so far.
>>
>> regards
>>
>> m
>> On Wed, Jun 13, 2018 at 6:24 AM Robert Yaklin <ryaklin at gmail.com> wrote:
>>> And then you have people like myself who were new to OSM and reading the docs that say to join mailing list and to send email to mailing list before doing proposed import of data and get no reply. Maybe the people who would have replied use other channels and not the mailing list. In any case it leaves me not feeling particularly welcome. Nor does it encourage me to invest my time into mapping. At least now that this slack discussion is happening I have some explanation of why it seemed not many people participate in the mailing list. I'll never voluntarily install or use slack and had never heard of it before this discussion.
>>>
>>> On Tue, Jun 12, 2018, 7:36 PM Ian Dees <ian.dees at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> On Tue, Jun 12, 2018 at 5:10 PM Greg Troxel <gdt at lexort.com> wrote:
>>>>> Martijn van Exel <m at rtijn.org> writes:
>>>>>
>>>>>> Hi Simon,
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> * everyone is on it
>>>>>>> That's a bit of a self fulfilling prophecy after you've essentially
>>>>>>> force migrated everybody there and then cut the ties with any other
>>>>>>> competing media (in OSM) so that you can have your nice walled garden.
>>>>>> I would argue that it is a good thing that people converge on one
>>>>>> platform to talk about OSM. Whether Slack remains the right choice is
>>>>>> something we can debate. It was really the only feasible choice that
>>>>>> was available to us at the time we (OSM US) felt the need for a better
>>>>>> platform for conversations. Slack has done its job as a for-profit
>>>>>> non-open company well in the sense that we're somewhat locked in
>>>>>> now. I dislike the fact that it is a walled garden, and becoming more
>>>>>> so, as much as anyone who values free and open data and software. If
>>>>>> there is a practical way to improve that situation, we should pursue
>>>>>> it.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Finally, please stop your unpleasant trolling, it has no place in OSM.
>>>>> Slack is a company with terms some don't like.  People should not have
>>>>> to enter into a contract with some random company to participate in OSM.
>>>>>
>>>>> I for one am not on the osmf-us slack, and am likely to continue not
>>>>> being on it.  So "everyone is on it" is demonstrably false.
>>>>>
>>>>> Another issue is that we are building open data, and open data and open
>>>>> source go hand in hand philosophically.  So it is not surprising that
>>>>> members of the OSM community object to proprietary communications
>>>>> systems.  It is surprising that a non-trivial number of OSM people think
>>>>> proprietary communication systems are ok.
>>>>>
>>>>> There is matrix; I haven't tried that, and I've heard positive reports
>>>>> about self-hosted mattermost.
>>>>>
>>>>> Another possibility, which might fix the terms issue but not the
>>>>> proprietary issue, would be for OSMF-US to enter into an agreement with
>>>>> Slack, Inc. in such a way that OSM people do not have to enter into a
>>>>> contract, much as if they were employees.
>>>> As we've said multiple times in this thread, it's totally OK for there to be multiple avenues of communication in the OSM community. That has always been the case and will continue being the case. If a group of community members want to get together on a communications channel, they should do that. It's especially OK when the communication channels are so different (like Slack/IRC vs. mailing lists). OSM US doesn't require anyone to use any particular communication channel and a large swath of the US's most engaged mappers are on several (mailing lists, slack, IRC, forum, etc.).
>>>>
>>>> Also, I don't think it's surprising that a vast array of different kinds of people participate in OpenStreetMap. Some of those people are interested and passionate in OpenStreetMap because of its relation to the Open Source movement, and some people want to contribute to a community project. I'm sure there are plenty of other reasons why people are part of this community – we should be welcoming to all of them, not just the ones that are passionate about Open Source.
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> Talk-us mailing list
>>>> Talk-us at openstreetmap.org
>>>> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Talk-us mailing list
>>> Talk-us at openstreetmap.org
>>> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
>>
>> ------------------------------
>>
>> Subject: Digest Footer
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Talk-us mailing list
>> Talk-us at openstreetmap.org
>> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
>>
>>
>> ------------------------------
>>
>> End of Talk-us Digest, Vol 127, Issue 11
>> ****************************************
>
> _______________________________________________
> Talk-us mailing list
> Talk-us at openstreetmap.org
> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us


-------------- next part --------------
A non-text attachment was scrubbed...
Name: signature.asc
Type: application/pgp-signature
Size: 488 bytes
Desc: OpenPGP digital signature
URL: <http://lists.openstreetmap.org/pipermail/talk-us/attachments/20180613/ab0b98d4/attachment-0001.sig>