[Talk-us] Potential Mechanical Edit to remove access=private from Amazon Logistics driveways in NH

[Greg Troxel]

Matthew Woehlke <mwoehlke.floss at gmail.com> writes:

> On 31/08/2020 10.54, Greg Troxel wrote:
>> Matthew Woehlke writes:
>>> *You* may see it this way. The rest of the community does not.
>>
>> A declaration that every other member of the community disagrees is
>> unreasonable.
>
> I'm not sure if this is directed at me or at Mike. If at me, I'll
> point out that the fact we're having this conversation in the first
> place is because someone strongly disagrees with residential driveways
> being access=private "by default". Nor is it the first time I've
> encountered that opinion.
>
> Honestly, my initial opinion on the matter was closer to Mike's, but
> others told me I was wrong.

That's far more reasonable.  I think it's obvious that there is
disagreement, and it's also obvious that this is very difficult.

What I objected to was not "that is your opinion; many others disagree"
but "that is your opinion but *no one else* sees it that way".  If you
didn't really mean that, sorry for overreacting.

>>    B) private shopping centers where the public is welcome, to shop.
>>    (access=customers, mostly)
>>
>>    C) private land where use is known acceptable (access=permissive)
>
> Even this is not clear. *My* understanding is that most businesses are
> closer to access=permissive, with access=customers referring more to
> places that are explicitly signed as "customers only". In most
> shopping centers, for example, it seems acceptable to go there just to
> walk around even with no intention of purchasing anything. (At least,
> I know that people do so...)

I agree this is tricky.    I think the issue for unsigned shopping
centers and parking lots is:

  it is basically always ok to go there to shop (looking at things with
  the intention of maybe buying them)

  it is usually/sometimes ok to visit without intent to buy ("mall
  walking").  One can kind of view this as almost-customers as the mall
  more or less permits/encourages this in the hopes that people will buy
  things because they are there anyway.

  It is sometimes ok to just park there to go someplace else nearby, or
  leave a car for carpooling.  And sometimes not.

To me, permissive means "the landowner is known not to object to the
extent that this can be treated as access=yes, except that ther is no
explicit grant of permission and defintely no legally-enshrined right."
That's a far broader notion that a parking lot at a business without a
customers-only sign.  In that case, I think it's very much in the grey
area between prohibited and acceptable,   Permissive is a declartion
that it is accceptable.

So I would lean to marking lots and way at businesses as
access=customers normally, and wanting a tag to say that there is an
actual sign limiting this.
-------------- next part --------------
A non-text attachment was scrubbed...
Name: signature.asc
Type: application/pgp-signature
Size: 194 bytes
Desc: not available
URL: <http://lists.openstreetmap.org/pipermail/talk-us/attachments/20200831/58c21bea/attachment.sig>