[Talk-us] How to map snowmobile trails in US?

Fri May 8 00:05:04 UTC 2020

Thanks for all the ideas so far. I like the route (relationship) approach
and that seems very appropriate. Unfortunately I did not do the mapping and
am just trying to figure out how much to get involved in this snowmobile
project yet (am concentrating on bike paths, etc for now).

In my neck of woods some parts of the snowmobile routes are on existing or
newly created paths/tracks/etc. They can be mapped easily. I understand how
to handle them. Other parts are in ditches near side of the road, along
fences near Interstate highways, on property lines between farms, etc. In
those area there is no way that would be mapped during the summer. So in
some sense it seems the right thing to do is to have a way there, of some
type, that represents something that is invisible in summer but part of a
snowmobile route.

So imagine this simple example. A path (of some sort) goes from point A to
B. Between points B and C there is no way (no path, road, highway, cycle
way, foot path, track, etc. Then there is another path of some sort between
points C and D. So the relationship (a snowmobile route) includes ways
"AB", "BC" and "CD". What type of way should "BC" be?

This area shows such a snowmobile trail:

https://www.openstreetmap.org/edit#map=17/45.83596/-95.31124

Much of it is not along any visible way of any sort. It looks like part of
it could be on an existing (but not mapped unpaved service road) and part
of it crosses a stream next to (but probably on) an unmapped little bridge.
If all the ways that were mappable were actually mapped, most of the
snomobile trail would still be on unmapped (unmappable) "invisible in the
summer" ways.

I can transfer this thread/discussion to another forum (tagging?) if
appropriate. Thank you for all your energy and patience so far!

On Thu, May 7, 2020 at 6:37 PM Dave Swarthout <daveswarthout at gmail.com>
wrote:

> > Please only use highway=track when there is an forestry or agricultural
> road / track which is passable by 2-track vehicles such as farm tractors,
> logging trucks, or 4wd cars
> +1
>
> You might better use something like highway=path which allows for use by
> multiple vehicle types (snowmobile, ATC, ATV) as well as on foot via
> snowshoe or ski. Unless of course, it overlaps an agricultural or logging
> track.
>
> On Thu, May 7, 2020 at 11:14 PM Joseph Eisenberg <
> joseph.eisenberg at gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> Winter-only snowmobile routes are mapped if they are signed. Create a
>> route relation with type=route + route=snowmobile (used 141 times) - see
>> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag%3Aroute%3Dsnowmobile
>>
>> Please only use highway=track when there is an forestry or agricultural
>> road / track which is passable by 2-track vehicles such as farm tractors,
>> logging trucks, or 4wd cars.
>>
>> -- Joseph Eisenberg
>>
>> (You might try the Tagging mailing list for questions about how to tag
>> something: tagging at openstreetmap.org)
>>
>> On Thu, May 7, 2020 at 8:43 AM Kevin Broderick <ktb at kevinbroderick.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> Ideally, I'd say that most snowmobile routes should be relations, not
>>> ways. At least in the places I'm familiar with (New England and Montana), a
>>> significant portion of the snowmobile trail network overlaps with seasonal
>>> roads that are open to wheeled traffic in some conditions. Having the
>>> summer ground truth mapped accurately is hugely helpful if you're poking
>>> around in the summer, whether it be hiking, biking, riding an on/off-road
>>> motorcycle, etc; as you noted, some snowmachine trails are virtually
>>> invisible in the summer and may even be impassable (I'm familiar with some
>>> spots in Vermont where the snowmachine trails transit across swamp or
>>> marshland once it's frozen—not something you want to try to cross on foot
>>> or wheeled vehicle).
>>>
>>> Around here, there's also the side issue of someone having mapped one of
>>> the ITS routes as a track for a long distance, when it actually should be a
>>> series of ways with different data, as some parts are well-maintained
>>> gravel roads in the summer, others are less-well-maintained, some are
>>> public ways and others aren't.
>>>
>>> To answer the question about sections that specifically cross fields:
>>> I'd still be tempted to tag that as highway=track, with appropriate access
>>> and surface tags. I'm not sure it's the best way to do it, but I can't come
>>> up with a better way, and the track in question would likely be passable
>>> with permission and the right vehicle.
>>>
>>> As for sections that cross [frozen] marshes, or other areas that aren't
>>> passable when the ground is thawed, I don't know. Maybe there is a use case
>>> for "highway=frozen" or something similar, as ice_road is applied to
>>> another way, and none of the highway= values with which  I'm familiar would
>>> make sense.
>>>
>>> On Thu, May 7, 2020 at 10:41 AM Bob Gambrel <rjgambrel at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Am newby to talk-us. This may have been discussed in the past but not
>>>> handy with searching archives yet.
>>>>
>>>> In Minnesota I have seen snowmobile trails mapped in OSM as follows:
>>>>
>>>> highway=track
>>>> snowmobile=designated
>>>> surface=unpaved
>>>>
>>>> In both aerial photos and observation on the ground, there is almost
>>>> always no track visible. In the winter, with snow cover, the location of
>>>> the track is visible because it is compacted by snowmobiles. In the spring
>>>> there might be some evidence in areas with grasses that would have been
>>>> tamped down by the snowmobiles.
>>>>
>>>> Question: Is this the right way to map snowmobile trails? The thing
>>>> that concerns me, of course, is the use of "track" because of it is not
>>>> apparent most of the time.
>>>>
>>>> Another question: is there a forum or expert group or something that
>>>> discusses this? I would like to join that conversation if there is  one
>>>> going on.
>>>>
>>>> I think it is a good idea to map these trails. It seems there maybe
>>>> should be another type of highway? Something like: "not visible on the
>>>> ground most of the year". Note that ice_road=yes is not appropriate here
>>>> (in most cases) as (in most cases) these trails are not on frozen water
>>>> bodies.
>>>>
>>>> As further info, where I was able to observe there are a number of
>>>> signs posted such as stop signs, caution signs, etc. So there clearly is
>>>> government involvement.
>>>>
>>>> Any thoughts?
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> Talk-us mailing list
>>>> Talk-us at openstreetmap.org
>>>> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>> Kevin Broderick
>>> ktb at kevinbroderick.com
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Talk-us mailing list
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>>>
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>
>
> --
> Dave Swarthout
> Homer, Alaska
> Chiang Mai, Thailand
> Travel Blog at http://dswarthout.blogspot.com
>
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