[Talk-us] Announcing progress: Minnesota Highway classification project publishes first guidance

Fri Jan 28 18:28:34 UTC 2022

I don’t understand Paul’s thinking on this. Florida Turnpike (southern end)
& GA-400 (northern end) both end/ start at AGCs where the first actual
on/off ramp isn’t for a few miles or so. 400 is restricted to only getting
on/off from the AGC (with a red light). Wurzbach Pkwy in San Antonio is the
same.

On Fri, Jan 28, 2022 at 13:24 Evin Fairchild <evindfair at gmail.com> wrote:

> Paul is going to disagree with me on this, but per standard practice, I'd
> tag it as motorway up to the first at grade intersection, as that is the
> first point where anyone driving thru there will notice that they're no
> longer on a freeway if they're driving north on US 61.
>
> On Fri, Jan 28, 2022, 10:10 AM Ian Nicholson <ian at binaryash.net> wrote:
>
>> So as someone who’s not extremely versed on this: if we assume that
>> motorways should not end at at-grade intersections, how should US-61 be
>> tagged where it intersects with I-90 at Dakota (this is where I-90 turns
>> away from the Mississippi and heads west in the south half of Winona
>> County)?
>> 61 has on/off ramps several hundred feet north of the split, but about a
>> half mile to mile north of the ramps there is an at-grade driveway to the
>> southbound lane and about a half mile north of that there is a turn lane
>> where the northbound lane can access a frontage road.
>> Apologies I realize this is basic but I’ve just had a difficult time
>> getting my head around these tags.
>>
>> Sent from my mobile device, please forgive any errors in my spelling or
>> grammar.
>>
>> On Jan 28, 2022, at 11:47, Bob Gambrel <rjgambrel at gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> 
>> Thanks Paul. I will post your thoughts. Thanks again for your insight
>>
>> On Fri, Jan 28, 2022, 11:04 AM Paul Johnson <baloo at ursamundi.org> wrote:
>>
>>> On Fri, Jan 28, 2022 at 9:43 AM Bob Gambrel <rjgambrel at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> I really want to be clear about your position so I do not misstate it
>>>> in the channel. I know you have already covered it but if I try to piece it
>>>> together from the thread I might get it wrong. Am stating what I think your
>>>> position is. Let me know if I got it right ...
>>>>
>>>> 1) Barring exceptional edge cases ...
>>>> 2) A motorway should not end/start at an at grade intersection
>>>> 3) A motorway should start/end  where a ramp touches the carriageway
>>>>
>>>> I cannot remember in the long thread whether you weighed in about the
>>>> length of a motorway island. Following are questions about that. The slack
>>>> discussion that Evin initiated is more about item (a) below and I want to
>>>> make sure your thoughts enter that discussion ...
>>>>
>>>> a) Do you believe there is a minimum number of (non at-grade)
>>>> interchanges there should be before we classify something as a motorway?
>>>> For example, is a one interchange motorway island ok?
>>>> b) Do you have any particular concerns about the minimum length of a
>>>> motorway island?
>>>>
>>>
>>> It's a little hard to quantify, but generally speaking I'm not inclined
>>> to step it up for just one exit, even on long sections, mostly because
>>> people expect freeways to be fully controlled, without at-grade access, and
>>> at least two carriageways.  This mostly leaves "places with a
>>> grade-separated junction" as the closest handy transition point.  I'm
>>> generally hesitant about setting something to motorway if it's not a fairly
>>> clear case of motorway.  Short islands of motorway often fall into the
>>> category of mapping the DOT's not-fully-realized aspirations for a freeway,
>>> in which case it may be useful to ask if "proposed=motorway" and
>>> "expressway=yes" in addition to a lower highway value is highly likely to
>>> be more closely accurate.  I don't have a MN example offhand but being able
>>> to quickly distinguish the difference could mean, in PA for example,
>>> consumers taking I 76 instead of the immediately adjacent and
>>> not-quite-a-freeway US 212 when routing for shortest time, absent all other
>>> tags.
>>>
>>> I hope you don't think I am being picky here. I really want to get your
>>>> thoughts into the discussion, if you don't join it yourself.
>>>>
>>>
>>> You're fine.
>>>
>>>
>>>> To recap the current guidlines in Minn: motorways islands have no
>>>> minimum length requirement, can consist of as few as a single interchange,
>>>> and end at the first at-grade intersection.
>>>>
>>>> On Fri, Jan 28, 2022 at 9:14 AM Paul Johnson <baloo at ursamundi.org>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> On Fri, Jan 28, 2022 at 8:44 AM Bob Gambrel <rjgambrel at gmail.com>
>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> I think we are near the end of this talk-us thread. Both Evin and
>>>>>> Paul have provided input along the way and I have responded as well. A few
>>>>>> others added insight as well. As a result of this there is a newly opened
>>>>>> discussion the the Slack #local-minnesota channel addressing this issue.
>>>>>> Evin has initiated the discussion there. Other active
>>>>>> highway-classification mappers are joining that discussion. Others who have
>>>>>> joined this talk-us discussion are on Slack and are aware of the
>>>>>> #local-minnesota channel so can participate as they see fit in that
>>>>>> discussion.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Paul: I want to make sure your views are discussed there. If you want
>>>>>> to join that discussion please do. If not can you summarize your bottom
>>>>>> line opinions about what the wiki says now that you disagree with. You can
>>>>>> provide them here or within the wiki discussion page. I am asking this now
>>>>>> because it is possible that your views have changed since the beginning of
>>>>>> the thread. If you post your views here I will transcribe them to Slack so
>>>>>> the others can know what they are.
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> I think I already covered it.  Only significant concern being the
>>>>> motorway part.  Barring some truly exceptional edge cases, I don't think we
>>>>> should be hinting to consumers to expect a freeway heading into an at-grade
>>>>> intersection, particularly when such a situation is something I think
>>>>> everyone would expect to happen on an expressway.
>>>>>
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