[Talk-us] Talk-us Digest, Vol 171, Issue 5

Thu Oct 5 15:19:16 UTC 2023

I am listening in on this discussion as the same problem exists in other
parts of world and for other types of routes.
The waymarkedtrails hiking and cycling routes layer uses the abbreviation
scheme. This solves problems with cycling routes where no ref number or
similar is on the signs. My favorite example is the cycling route relation
"Sui Sentieri degli Ezzelini" which shows this wording on every sign. A
similar issue exists for thematic car routes like "Route du Vin d'Alsace".
I think it makes sense to propose this approach of made-up ref values as a
general scheme for routes without a genuine Reference

On Fri, 11 Feb 2022, 13:07 , <talk-us-request at openstreetmap.org> wrote:

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> Today's Topics:
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>    1. Ref values on unusual highway networks (Brian M. Sperlongano)
>    2. Re: Ref values on unusual highway networks (Shawn K. Quinn)
>    3. Re: Ref values on unusual highway networks (Clay Smalley)
>
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Message: 1
> Date: Thu, 10 Feb 2022 07:32:57 -0500
> From: "Brian M. Sperlongano" <zelonewolf at gmail.com>
> To: talk-us <talk-us at openstreetmap.org>
> Subject: [Talk-us] Ref values on unusual highway networks
> Message-ID:
>         <CAMrfQx28BZCkZRKRd87OXnQJk=
> 7ZH+GWT9_NEF92KQFatMYMjA at mail.gmail.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
>
> Good morning,
>
> As the openstreetmap-americana project[1] continues its march through the
> addition of highway shields to the map, we have quickly encountered, as any
> American roadgeek might expect, the long list of unusual or one-off highway
> networks.  In addition to presenting an artwork challenge in squeezing
> questionable state DOT graphic design choices into a 20 pixel icon, we are
> also encountering a fair amount of variety in how or whether ref values are
> tagged on these routes, and in some cases the routes lack a route relation
> entirely.  We initially encountered this when discussing how to draw
> shields for Kentucky's parkway system[2], but there are quite a few other
> route networks that are similarly borderline cases.
>
> I've begun the following wiki page to compile a listing of this rogues
> gallery of road networks which do not have a clear translation between
> signage and ref values:
>
> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/United_States/Unusual_highway_networks
>
> So first off, if you know of other unusual highway networks that don't have
> straightforward mappings to ref values, please add them, as it forms a
> helpful "TO DO" list for the project to add renderer support.
>
> There have generally been two approaches to assigning ref values for these
> cases:
> 1. Omit the ref value entirely
> 2. Create the ref value from an initialism of the route's name (for
> example, Sam Houston Tollway is tagged ref=SHT and I am not making this up)
>
> Perhaps the most borderline case is of New York State's green-signed
> parkways, which feature the parkway name in drop-caps, where the first
> letter is drawn in much larger text.
>
> There has been a fair amount of discussion about these manufactured ref
> values, and whether they should be removed from these route relations, with
> examples given about how they cause undesired behavior by data consumers
> such as turn-by-turn routers that expect the ref tag to contain text
> displayed on signage as a route number.  Some have surmised that these ref
> values were likely added to cause osm-carto, which of course does not
> render highway shields, to add a label lozenge.
>
> Community input is requested on the question of where we should draw the
> line between what is properly tagged as a ref and and what should be
> omitted in these cases.
>
>
> [1] https://github.com/ZeLonewolf/openstreetmap-americana
> [2] https://github.com/ZeLonewolf/openstreetmap-americana/pull/119
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> Message: 2
> Date: Thu, 10 Feb 2022 06:57:36 -0600
> From: "Shawn K. Quinn" <skquinn at rushpost.com>
> To: talk-us at openstreetmap.org
> Subject: Re: [Talk-us] Ref values on unusual highway networks
> Message-ID: <af14777a-07bd-6fba-8e34-92c3f3b0420a at rushpost.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8
>
> On 2/10/22 06:32, Brian M. Sperlongano wrote:
> > I've begun the following wiki page to compile a listing of this rogues
> > gallery of road networks which do not have a clear translation between
> > signage and ref values:
> >
> >
> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/United_States/Unusual_highway_networks
> > <
> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/United_States/Unusual_highway_networks
> >
> [...]
> > There have generally been two approaches to assigning ref values for
> > these cases:
> > 1. Omit the ref value entirely
> > 2. Create the ref value from an initialism of the route's name (for
> > example, Sam Houston Tollway is tagged ref=SHT and I am not making this
> up)
>
> I think a lot of #2 (such as your example) comes because some validators
> at least used to flag #1 as an error (Keep Right flagged and probably
> still flags motorway without ref=*, there may have been others).
>
> > Community input is requested on the question of where we should draw the
> > line between what is properly tagged as a ref and and what should be
> > omitted in these cases.
>
> As a Houstonian and likely the most active mapper for the greater
> Houston area, I am perfectly okay with finding another ref for the Sam
> Houston Tollway or omitting it entirely. However, I am open to other
> options if a majority of OSM users in/near Houston feel differently.
>
> --
> Shawn K. Quinn <skquinn at rushpost.com>
> http://www.rantroulette.com
> http://www.skqrecordquest.com
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 3
> Date: Thu, 10 Feb 2022 12:25:44 -0500
> From: Clay Smalley <claysmalley at gmail.com>
> To: "Shawn K. Quinn" <skquinn at rushpost.com>
> Cc: OSM Talk US <talk-us at openstreetmap.org>
> Subject: Re: [Talk-us] Ref values on unusual highway networks
> Message-ID:
>         <
> CAHR3E+pBWSoGEXiJV68_qte-02WOb0gqySPe_O8nmHaRnxJHww at mail.gmail.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
>
> On Thu, Feb 10, 2022 at 8:03 AM Shawn K. Quinn <skquinn at rushpost.com>
> wrote:
>
> > As a Houstonian and likely the most active mapper for the greater
> > Houston area, I am perfectly okay with finding another ref for the Sam
> > Houston Tollway or omitting it entirely. However, I am open to other
> > options if a majority of OSM users in/near Houston feel differently.
> >
>
> I used to be a proponent of the initialism ref values on Houston area toll
> roads. Looking back, they probably don't belong, since they aren't used
> anywhere other than OSM.
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> End of Talk-us Digest, Vol 171, Issue 5
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