[OSM-talk] The Highway tags and other junk strikes back

[Ben Robbins]

>Well having looked at the map on the osmarender layer, on JOSM and rendered
>using osmarender with the standard tile at home feature files, I find not 
>only does it not render pictorially,

As I said, many features dont render in the standard osmarender.

>but the information is not there for the navigation software to use i.e. 
>where the various ways go under and over bridges, they are not aware of the 
>existance of the bridges.

As I said, I have not checked over this bridge, Im shore there are faults.  
Please leave the out of the debate about what is the correct way to tag.  I 
am not saying that it is.   The bridge tag isnt nessesery as there is no 
height data for that bridge.  They are very high, and no maximum hiehgt 
limit is stated.

>Again I would point out that features like gates, stiles, and cattle grids 
>are nodes at the crossing point which when rendered will at the approprate 
>zoom levels be represented by standard symbols.

Having symbols 'WILL' clog up the map.  Just having a slightly thickier 
border line that renders along teh way tagged as a gate will not mess up the 
map.

>Using your method creates a significant amount of data which adds little to 
>the to the overall detail of the map, and in this instance fails to give 
>the degree of detail that the standard tags give.

Nope.  A a gate with 1 node holds 2 bits of inforamtion.

1) where it is rufly
2) that its a gate.

A gate with 3 nodes holds at least 7 bits of information

1) where it is exaclty
2) how long it is
3) which way it faces
4) how it connects to what it connects to
5) what goes threw it
6) It allows the data for use in more areas outside of osm
7) The data needed to render it acuratly

There is then no standard tag for the grades of track, so tracktype is 
infintaly more full of inforamtion.

>Trying to achieve the pictorial represtation of bridge parapets using nodes 
>and segments, is not the way to do it,

As I said, there is a lot of faults with it.  Please make note when I say 
that that I mean I'm already awair of that and seeking suggestions, not un 
helpful points that have already been observed.

>propose a symbol

Why, it renders fine as a set of parralell lines across the way.  Just 
plonking a icon over where the gate ruffly is, is not comparable to rendered 
a thicker line in the hedge where the gate is.

This is beggining to get really couter productive, and just wasting time.   
Please look at an OS  10,000 map, and you will note that borders are clearly 
marked just as border are.  rivers as rivers are, roads as roads are.  Gaps 
in the hedge are gaps in the hedge.  (many of which are smaller than a 
gate).   Please don't state that its more acurate, becuase I am still just 
talking about mapping everything relative to other features on the map.  Yet 
it would seem when ever I make a point based on there method of working it 
is seen as retarded, and using methods that are completly different to 
theres are good.   Also methods suited to urban areas are good, and to rural 
areas are not.  Well if I'm such a dum ass, can I request solutions as to 
how to tag all these things?

There has been ownly a few really good points returned from the initial 
email.  Mike Collinson's email for example.  Appart from that what has been 
gained?  We have astablished what people want themselves, but not what 
allows freedom to map from all different points of view.

Answer me this.

1)  I have a track, its right of way is a footway how do I tag it.
Answer: I can't.  the track data must go.
2)  I have a border marked hedge.  There is a gate in it.  What is the 
advanatage of leaveing 1 segment of the way as a hedge rarhter than calling 
it a gate?
answer: None.
3) I drive along a track, and the track degrades to just mud, and I have to 
turn around.  How do i tag this?
annwer:  I can't.
4) How do I add all that information about the bridge example?
Anwser, I can't
5) I'm walking threw a field looking for the footpath.  Like 99% of 
footpaths in the country side in england there is no visual evendence of its 
presence.  Would haiving a style marked on the map make it easier?.... and 
therefore, If I no that the style is facing adjecent to me, I would be awair 
that to spot it I should sway left/right so as to be able to pick it out 
better.
Answer, Yes
6) Is it better to make quanty or qualtiy?
well...we evedently disagree here.

I realy hope that andy's (backadders) new set of features will solve these 
problems, cause discussion evedently does not.

If anyone has any way of inproving or allowing me to add this information, 
other wise I do not wish to here there reasons why they persoanlly would not 
add it.  I would be interested to here better* suggestions for the bridges 
in particular.

*= better means better, not quicker.

The formular for making a tag that works is not:
Easiest Way X most conveient for me = best tag.
Its: Least Limiting x Least time consuming x Most widley usuably = best tag.

Ben

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