[OSM-talk] ferry route speed

Fri Sep 5 11:28:26 BST 2008

Thanks for that. The proposal does remind me of the problem in that we can't
create a relationship with an ordered list of members so it is not possible
to define a bus route that has a loop in it (which does happen). There does
seem to be a general need for an option to associate and ordered list of
members with a relationship for a number of purposes, and this is a good
example but it requires changes to the data model and to the tools to be
achieved.

Btw, what we call a 'route' is also called a 'route in transmodel', but is
called a 'shape' in Google transit feed specification and a 'track' in
Transxchange. The UK acknowledges TransModel as the preferred source for
terminology and Transxchange will come into line with it in due course (as
does the rest of the EU). There are discussions with Google Transit at the
moment about aligning their modelling and terminology with EU standards or
at least clarifying where there modelling differs and the mapping between
the two. I understand that there are also discussions about Transmodel
becoming an ISO standard, but in the mean time terminology can be a
nightmare!

Also... in the EU vehicles make 'journeys' and people do 'trips' So someone
might go across town and take two buses, they have taken two 'rides' on each
of two buses as part of their trip. These buses have been doing 'Vehicle
Journeys' as part of the 'Block' or work between leaving the depot and
arriving back. The person sat on the bus for part of two different Vehicle
Journeys. The distinction is entirely arbitrary, but is used consistently
within the EU transport sector. Note that Google Transit using the term
'Trip' to describe what the vehicle does. When comparing different standards
it is useful to remember this little difference as well and I suggest we
align with TransModel and the EU who have the most developed standards in
this space at present.

Regards,

Peter

> -----Original Message-----
> From: talk-bounces at openstreetmap.org [mailto:talk-
> bounces at openstreetmap.org] On Behalf Of Patrick Weber
> Sent: 04 September 2008 11:23
> To: talk at openstreetmap.org
> Subject: [Spam] Re: [OSM-talk] ferry route speed
> 
> Someone has been thinking about public transport routes, in the context
> of bus routes, and put forward a quite detailed proposal. This can be
> extended and generalised to include other forms of Public Transport.
> 
> http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/index.php/QROTI
> 
> Another interesting read is the http://www.transxchange.org.uk/
> protocol for exchanging bus route information.
> 
> Cheers
> Patrick
> 
> Peter Miller wrote:
> > Traditionally the GIS part (Where are the Stops? / What is the route?)
> is
> > managed separately from the schedules themselves. If we define the
> routes
> > and the stops in OSM then we should probably leave it to other systems
> to
> > handle the timetables (opentimetableservice?).
> >
> > One handover bit that is worth including is the transport operator's own
> ID
> > for each Stop Point.
> >
> > Google have a simple timetable transfer protocol which might be worth a
> > looking at.
> > http://code.google.com/transit/spec/transit_feed_specification.html
> >
> > Mappers in San Francisco, Portland and a few other places might like to
> play
> > with some available schedules in this format.
> > http://code.google.com/p/googletransitdatafeed/wiki/PublicFeeds
> >
> >
> >
> > Regards,
> >
> >
> >
> > Peter
> >
> >
> >> -----Original Message-----
> >> From: talk-bounces at openstreetmap.org [mailto:talk-
> >> bounces at openstreetmap.org] On Behalf Of Mark Williams
> >> Sent: 04 September 2008 06:55
> >> To: Kevin Ryan
> >> Cc: talk at openstreetmap.org; Gervase Markham
> >> Subject: [Spam] Re: [OSM-talk] ferry route speed
> >>
> >> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
> >> Hash: SHA1
> >>
> >> Kevin Ryan wrote:
> >>
> >>> Should probably give some indication of the max and min.  Helsinki to
> >>> Tallinn can be done in about 40-45 minutes during the summer in the
> fast
> >>> ferries.  Winter time the fastest is about 4 hours.
> >>>
> >>> 2008/9/2 Gervase Markham <gerv-gmane at gerv.net>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>> Shaun McDonald wrote:
> >>>>
> >>>>> That low speed is far too low. When I was on the Holyhead to Dublin
> >>>>> ferries recently, my GPS was giving 45mph for the return journey,
> and
> >>>>> 25-30mph for the outward (different ferries, the return was the
> swift
> >>>>> fastcraft).
> >>>>>
> >>>> Hmm. Perhaps we need maxcrossingtime and mincrossingtime.
> >>>>
> >>>> Gerv
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >> Obviously, not all ferrries are the same. The low speed was indeed to
> >> account for loading time.
> >>
> >> max & min is fine, but doesn't account for time of day / no ferry for 5
> >> hours.
> >>
> >> Timetables can vary quite frequently.
> >>
> >> I can't think of any way other than a link to the operator's URL that's
> >> going to allow this to actually, really, work for timings, so some sort
> >> of guide value is required - I do think this should be per route not
> >> generic, the average I alluded to earlier is in the nature of a fix
> >> because right now, I haven't seen an OSM-based router route on ferries
> >> at all, so a silly time is better than avoiding it altogether.
> >>
> >> Mark
> >> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
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> >> Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org
> >>
> >> iD8DBQFIv3g5JfMmcSPNh94RAsQTAJwKd4ptpImWMsaNTVL56d/yfTjPDQCeLd+M
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> >>
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