[OSM-talk] i18n-rich areas on the map
Woll Newall
woll at 2-islands.com
Wed Jul 29 21:28:16 BST 2009
Emilie,
If you are going to add machine-created romaji transliterations, then
I strongly suggest that you put them into name:jp_rm (as given in the
Japanese mappers' specification above) and do not put them into name:en.
See: http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Japan_tagging#Names
Using name:jp_rm will be much clearer and consistent than using
name:en. It will also be better for using in multi-lingual maps,
because the software displaying the map can then be (more) certain
which "language" is stored in each tag and display the "correct" ones.
Automatically creating loads of new name:en tags containing romaji
instead of English will increase confusion. I personally think that
name:en should only be used for real English translations (although
the Japanese mappers' spec. doesn't say that - it allows for
transliterations or translations!).
Another reason for putting your machine transliterations into
name:jp_rm would be to avoid the situation where you add a romaji
transliteration into the name:en tag when there is actually a
legitimate English translation that should be in there. I can't think
of a way for your software to know whether there is a legitimate
English translation or not, given that it requires local knowledge (at
least some of the time)? It would be much better to have the name:en
blank in cases where there is a legitimate English translation (and
the translation has not been entered yet!). As many of the Japanese
edits are going to be entered by Japanese natives who may not know the
legitimate English translations, I'd guess that there are going to be
quite a lot of blank name:en tags that should have an English
translation not a romaji transliteration, so 'blank' can't be
automatically interpreted as 'needs romaji transliteration'.
Having just re-read your posting, I'm actually not so sure what you
are proposing - you wrote "I believe that
we should keep name:en and name:jp clearly separated." but than you
also wrote "I do believe that translitteration is worthy of appearing
in name:en when none exists." Hmmm!
Cheers,
Woll (mapper in Japan)
> Emilie Laffray wrote:
> Ed Avis wrote:
>> This is not really name:en, more like name:jp at Romaji.
>>
>> For example the Imperial Palace in Tokyo would have
>>
>> name:en=Imperial Palace
>> name:jp at Romaji=koukyo
>> name:jp=??
>>
>> Similar considerations apply to countries with more than one
>> alphabet, for example
>> I would expect to see
>>
>> name:en=Belgrade
>> name:sr at Cyrillic=???????
>> name:sr at Latn=Beograd
>>
>> Putting something into a different alphabet is not the same as
>> translating it to a
>> different language, and putting Japanese into a Latin orthography
>> is not the same
>> as translating it to English. So I would suggest adding the Romaji
>> strings if they
>> are needed, but tagging them appropriately and not as name:en.
>>
> Thank you for this comment and yes, I am quite aware of the
> distinction
> for the Japanese language. However, I do believe that translitteration
> is worthy of appearing in name:en when none exists. I am taking the
> opposite approach that you are mentionning in this case. In all cases,
> you are starting in English to go towards the other language.
> Yes putting it in a different alphabet is not the same, but it can
> be a
> starting point until someone is filling the blank with a proper
> translation hence the two steps: translitteration and a dedicated
> translation website.
> However, you have rightly pointed how multiple writings could be used.
> Maybe a name:Latn would be better in this case or something indicating
> the language and the destination alphabet.
> This is an open mail and an open discussion which I believe is worth
> having.
> I am to some extent a bit annoyed to see things like name = name in
> native language (English translation) in the OSM files. I believe that
> we should keep name:en and name:jp clearly separated. Having fully
> localized maps for people of those countries would be better. Now, I
> can
> see some objections as you being the foreigner you won't be able to
> read, but those people in those countries won't contribute if they
> don't
> see their language displayed in their countries.
> As the discussion is showing, there are some efforts to have dynamic
> text layers which I believe is important hence the translitteration
> effort I am proposing.
>
> Emilie Laffray
>
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> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 3
> Date: Wed, 29 Jul 2009 20:16:32 +0200
> From: Martin Koppenhoefer <dieterdreist at gmail.com>
> Subject: [OSM-talk] definition of the main highway-tag
> To: osm <talk at openstreetmap.org>
> Message-ID:
> <7acdb3650907291116g4f87609fpbc33a23104a0922b at mail.gmail.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8
>
> Hi,
>
> reading the English page for tag highway
> http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:highway and comparing it to the
> German version, I found some inconsistencies. Whilst I generally would
> have tried to transfer the English content to the German page, in this
> particular case I think that the German version is better.
>
> The main definition in English is:
> The '''highway tag''' is the primary tag used for highways. It is
> often the only tag. It is a very general and sometimes vague
> ''description of the physical structure of the highway''.
>
> This goes back to an edit from 27th Oct. 2007 (Etric Celine). Until
> then (from March 06) there was just this: "Applying to feature type:
> Physical ".
>
> The German version defines:
> "Das highway Tag ist das Haupt-tag f?r Stra?en. Oftmals ist es auch
> das einzige Tag. Es ist recht allgemein und bestimmt in etwa die
> Verkehrsbedeutung der Stra?e. "
> (translates ~ "The tag highway is the primary tag for highways. Often
> it is the only one. It is quite general and defines ~ the importance
> of the road for the traffic"
>
> There are then 2 examples to show the advantage of a physical
> classification in respect to an administrative one (on the English
> page, dating back to the same edit):
> "Here are two examples where the highway tag differs from the legal
> status:
>
> Some roads in the UK that were legally classified as trunk roads
> have been "detrunked" and are no longer designated by the government
> as trunk roads. These roads should still have the tag highway=trunk.
>
> /* This first example is valid for a classification according to the
> importance as well, while the 2nd would result in different tagging:
> */
>
> A road which is legally designated as trunk road has a section
> where the road is not built to trunk standards, e.g. a single lane
> with passing areas. The section that is not built to trunk standards
> should be given a different value for highway other than trunk.
>
> _____
>
> If the highway-tag was the only tag on a road, I would agree with this
> approach, but as we are meanwhile tagging physical attributes as
> supplementory tags (e.g. lanes, surface, traffic-lights), as we do for
> administrative classification (ref), I am in favour of changing the
> definition for highway (no longer mainly physical but mainly according
> to importance / logical position in the grid). The other properties
> and attributes will still persist (ref, lanes, dual-carriageways,
> surface, tracktype, ...) and describe the situation. Also there won't
> be many changes / tagging-modifications necessary, because bigger
> roads are generally more important roads.
>
> What do you think about this?
>
> cheers,
> Martin
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 4
> Date: Wed, 29 Jul 2009 11:29:25 -0700 (PDT)
> From: Joseph Scanlan <n7xsd at arrl.net>
> Subject: Re: [OSM-talk] Tagging Love Hotels ("Brazilian Motels")
> To: Arlindo Pereira <nighto at nighto.net>
> Cc: osm-talk <talk at openstreetmap.org>
> Message-ID: <alpine.DEB.1.10.0907291108350.27005 at patience.n7xsd.us>
> Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed
>
> Perhaps an additional tag to show stay duration.
>
> stay=hourly;daily;weekly;monthly
>
> Use any that apply. (There's probably a better tag to use than
> 'stay'.)
>
> We used to have a motel in town that featured "Free XXX Adult
> Movies" on
> their Marque (just in case hourly rates weren't a big enough hint).
>
> http://www.flickr.com/photos/89004900@N00/773484486/
> http://www.roadsidepeek.com/roadusa/southwest/nevada/vegas/lvmotel/lvstripmotel/index2.htm
>
> --
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> Joseph Scanlan
> +1-702-455-3679 http://www.n7xsd.us/
> jps at co.clark.nv.us (work) (not work) n7xsd at arrl.net
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> So he went inside there to take on what he found.
> But he never escaped them, for who can escape what he desires?
> --Tony Banks of Genesis
> in "The Lady Lies"
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 5
> Date: Wed, 29 Jul 2009 15:43:19 -0300
> From: Arlindo Pereira <nighto at nighto.net>
> Subject: Re: [OSM-talk] Tagging Love Hotels ("Brazilian Motels")
> To: osm-talk <talk at openstreetmap.org>
> Message-ID:
> <96ab930f0907291143v3ecb0d36k260e6475575cf0b0 at mail.gmail.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
>
> That's the point. Shouldn't we use another tag to map these kind of
> hotels?
> I imagine a search tool for each type of hotels, without having to
> guess
> about the period or the movies :P
>
> 2009/7/29 Joseph Scanlan <n7xsd at arrl.net>
>
>> Perhaps an additional tag to show stay duration.
>>
>> stay=hourly;daily;weekly;monthly
>>
>> Use any that apply. (There's probably a better tag to use than
>> 'stay'.)
>>
>> We used to have a motel in town that featured "Free XXX Adult
>> Movies" on
>> their Marque (just in case hourly rates weren't a big enough hint).
>>
>> http://www.flickr.com/photos/89004900@N00/773484486/
>>
>> http://www.roadsidepeek.com/roadusa/southwest/nevada/vegas/lvmotel/lvstripmotel/index2.htm
>>
>> --
>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
>> Joseph Scanlan
>> +1-702-455-3679 http://www.n7xsd.us/
>> jps at co.clark.nv.us (work) (not work) n7xsd at arrl.net
>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
>>
>> So he went inside there to take on what he found.
>> But he never escaped them, for who can escape what he desires?
>> --Tony Banks of Genesis
>> in "The Lady Lies"
>>
>
>
>
> --
> Arlindo Saraiva Pereira Jr.
>
> Bacharelando em Sistemas de Informa??o - UNIRIO - uniriotec.br
> Consultor de Software Livre da Uniriotec Consultoria - uniriotec.com
>
> Acad?mico: arlindo.pereira at uniriotec.br
> Profissional: arlindo.pereira at uniriotec.com
> Geral: contato at arlindopereira.com
> Tel.: +5521 92504072
> Jabber/Google Talk: nighto at nighto.net
> Skype: nighto_sumomo
> Chave p?blica: BD065DEC
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> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 6
> Date: Wed, 29 Jul 2009 20:45:44 +0200
> From: Martin Koppenhoefer <dieterdreist at gmail.com>
> Subject: Re: [OSM-talk] Tagging Love Hotels ("Brazilian Motels")
> To: Joseph Scanlan <n7xsd at arrl.net>
> Cc: osm-talk <talk at openstreetmap.org>
> Message-ID:
> <7acdb3650907291145mf63db6dq465a76ccda449e85 at mail.gmail.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8
>
> 2009/7/29 Joseph Scanlan <n7xsd at arrl.net>:
>> Perhaps an additional tag to show stay duration.
>>
>> ? ? ? ?stay=hourly;daily;weekly;monthly
>>
>> Use any that apply. ?(There's probably a better tag to use than
>> 'stay'.)
>>
>> We used to have a motel in town that featured "Free XXX Adult
>> Movies" on
>> their Marque (just in case hourly rates weren't a big enough hint).
>>
>> ? ? ? ?http://www.flickr.com/photos/89004900@N00/773484486/
>> ? ? ? ?http://www.roadsidepeek.com/roadusa/southwest/nevada/vegas/lvmotel/lvstripmotel/index2.htm
>
> Well, I would tag them completely differently. It is a different kind
> of object, it is not a Motel where you just pay according to a
> different fee system / business modell.
>
> cheers,
> Martin
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 7
> Date: Wed, 29 Jul 2009 15:13:59 -0400
> From: Greg Troxel <gdt at ir.bbn.com>
> Subject: Re: [OSM-talk] definition of the main highway-tag
> To: mk at koppenhoefer.com
> Cc: osm <talk at openstreetmap.org>
> Message-ID: <rmi8wi71evc.fsf at fnord.ir.bbn.com>
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