[OSM-talk] Naming disputes in Ukraine

[Frederik Ramm]

Peteris,

On 07/25/2012 09:42 AM, Peteris Krisjanis wrote:
> (Skipping all this, because obviously you are not that well informed
> about how this situation with Ukraine came into being)

I am trying to get a good picture of the situation, without being 
dragged into an ethnic conflict that seems to be the very reason why the 
Ukrainian community cannot solve this problem themselves. I have looked 
at the history of objects in OSM and if you believe that the key facts I 
mentioned (objects usually created in Russian, then renamed to Ukrainian 
a few months ago) are wrong then feel free to show us examples.

>> 1. The concrete question: Should all name tag in the Crimea be in
>> Russian (with appropriate name:uk tags of course), even though the
>> official language in Ukraine is Ukrainian?
>
> Oficial language in Ukraine is Ukrainian. Even Russia doesn't dispute
> that. So, *in my opinion*, no.

Russia, as a country, isn't involved. We are talking about Ukrainian 
citizens here who live in Ukraine and who prefer to use the Russian 
language.

>> 2. The general question: What exactly is the "local" language in an area
>> - can we come up with some rule of thumb that says "if X% of people in
>> an area of at least Y sq km use the language..." or so?
>
> I think it always have been local *official* language.

This certainly is a valid line of argument; however even the Ukrainian 
government seems to see the problem and now allows regional governments 
to define additional official languages:

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/07/04/world/europe/ukraine-parliament-adopts-russian-language-bill.html

I don't know if whatever regional government is responsible for the 
Crimea has already made use of these powers but there's no doubt that 
they will, is there? Which will lead to the Russian language having 
"official status" in the Crimea, and certainly with two official 
languages, we'd choose that which is used on the ground for the name 
tag, right?

This also demonstrates a weakness of the "official language" argument: 
It seems to be arbitrary. The law I quoted seems to have been passed 
with a slim majority, and it paves the way for Russian to be an official 
language in the Crimea. But the article says there are many Ukrainians 
who don't like that, so it is quite possible that the next government 
strikes down the law again, so Russian won't be an official language in 
the Crimea any more, and so on - do we really think it is good to change 
the "name" tags in the Crimea with every successive Ukrainian government 
just because the political whim of the day is for or against giving 
Russian "official" status? The people on the ground don't change, it's 
the same people in the same houses in the same streets, just a different 
government 800km away in Kiev...

Bye
Frederik

-- 
Frederik Ramm  ##  eMail frederik at remote.org  ##  N49°00'09" E008°23'33"