[OSM-talk] [OSM-talk-fr] Continued aggression against French contributors (cadastre integration)

[sly (sylvain letuffe)]

[I know it might be painfull to continue this discussion on talk, but it's 
even worse on talk-fr as lots of people don't read english and will be anoyed 
by this discussion, so I'm switching to an english talking mailing list]

Frederik,
 
> See, the same applies to DWG as well. It is utterly trivial for someone 
> to create a separate account for Cadastre work - a matter of five 
> minutes, or less. So we wonder: Why is this such a big deal for people?

Hey ? this argument is flawed : people don't do things because they are easy 
to do, people do things because they are usefull (or fun)!

And you failed, for now, to explain the french community what usefullness 
creating a second account for cadastre work was.
And as far as we have considered that matter, not only is it useless in our 
case, but it creates several new problems that make it even worse.
- creating and using a second account isn't "trivial", it might be for you, 
but we are targeting contributors with good local knowledge first, and they 
probably don't have all skills (or time) in creating a new email (needed) 
because they allready have theirs, (company email ?), no 
gmail/hotmail/whatever access at work
- Even if creating it isn't that hard in most cases, it also means switching 
account every now and then in JOSM to distinguish contribution directly from 
cadastre files, and those from bing/survey/knowledge
- Most people don't need a second email, they will just create it to please 
the DWG and will sooner or later stop monitoring it ! And that is even worse 
because we cannot contact them anymore !
 

> Now if someone is unwilling to do even this little bit of work in order 
> to make it easier for the rest of the community
[source needed]

> - and that includes DWG  

Here we are I guess ? You don't currently have the proper tools to detect true 
vandalism and cadastre import blinks side by side with other bad edits ?
If that's it, just tel us how we can improve on our way so that you can detect 
those edits !
Hint : You can detect it because it as a source=*cadastre* in most, if not 
all, elements.
And we have tools and team to detect real bad cadastre work (though not 
perfect yet).
 
> A Cadastre import is something that should only be done by people who 
> take this seriously, who are diligent, who know the rules and follow 
> them - in tagging as well as elsewhere.
> 
> For someone who possesses all these skills, creating an extra import 
> account should be easy.
> 
> There has been some discussion around the question of whether Cadastre 
> work counts as an import or not. I am willing to accept that someone who 
> uploads 100 houses is not importing something; it is conceivable that he 
> has actually looked at every single one of these houses. But someone who 
> uploads 10000 houses in one day is clearly making an import; there's no 
> way these houses have really been individually (!) reviewed.

This has been discussed dozen of time allready : you seam to assume that 
individually reviewed buildings are better than those imported from cadastre.
This is just unbacked up claim.
Cadastre data was built from guys on the ground, with survey means order of 
magnitude better as precision is concerned than we could ever have in OSM.
The data we have, as we have worked with it for years, and analysed is far 
better than what could (probably) ever be done with approximativ aerial 
tracing.
And it is much faster to include.
You think people should create data one hand in the back by mass clicking on 
an outdated aerial image ?
Sorry, we think we have better things to do of our time.
You know what I think ? you just became an "anti-import guy no matter what"

I do consider myself being in a sort of "anti-import" group as well, because 
most of them tends to be harmfull to the data and it's community, but I 
learnt that to every rule there should be exceptions because not every 
imports are the same.

I am not, myself, importing cadastre buildings because I think it could be 
better done. But I understood the french community by taking time to listen 
and compare pros and cons of such building imports.

> Bye
> Frederik
> -- 
> Frederik Ramm  ##  eMail frederik at remote.org  ##  N49°00'09" E008°23'33"

ps: sorry if the "wording" of my email seams excessive, but I completly fail 
to understand why you can't even reach the conclusion that there is 
a "reasonnable doublt" and keep blocking users during the negociations.


-- 
sly
qui suis-je : http://sly.letuffe.org
email perso : sylvain chez letuffe un point org