[OSM-talk] weeklyOSM #382 2017-11-07-2017-11-13

Jóhannes Birgir Jensson joi at betra.is
Sat Nov 18 18:50:12 UTC 2017


Just stop this.

This has been a fine example of how to decrease membership of a list 
that should be productive and friendly but has been anything but so far.


On 18.11.2017 18:42, john whelan wrote:
> No you need to build up trust again and it takes time.  Only then will 
> your ideas start to gain acceptance.
>
> Cheerio John
>
> On 18 November 2017 at 13:26, Yuri Astrakhan <yuriastrakhan at gmail.com 
> <mailto:yuriastrakhan at gmail.com>> wrote:
>
>     John, not trusting a brand name and being unreasonable about new
>     project are two different things. One is a healthy caution. The
>     other is a baseless witch hunt, at which point it doesn't matter
>     what the person does, what matters are the pitch forks and torches.
>
>     On Sat, Nov 18, 2017 at 1:19 PM, john whelan
>     <jwhelan0112 at gmail.com <mailto:jwhelan0112 at gmail.com>> wrote:
>
>         >There were many OSM edits I have done in the past. Some of them
>         might have broken the rules. How does that relate to the new
>         tool discussion?  The conversation was about the new tool that
>         does things the same way as several other tools.
>
>         How does that break "unwritten rules"?
>
>         It relates to trust and politics with a small p.  Your brand
>         name is untrusted.
>
>         Cheerio John
>
>         On 18 November 2017 at 13:11, Yuri Astrakhan
>         <yuriastrakhan at gmail.com <mailto:yuriastrakhan at gmail.com>> wrote:
>
>             James, this is not about hurt feelings. This is about
>             misrepresentation.
>
>             Last week I re-wrote Sophox tool based on the community
>             feedback. The new tool uses the same approaches as
>             existing tools. Yet, somehow I violated some unwritten
>             rule by creating a new tool?  This is bogus.
>
>             There were many OSM edits I have done in the past. Some of
>             them might have broken the rules. How does that relate to
>             the new tool discussion?  The conversation was about the
>             new tool that does things the same way as several other tools.
>
>             How does that break "unwritten rules"?
>
>             On Sat, Nov 18, 2017 at 5:24 AM, James
>             <james2432 at gmail.com <mailto:james2432 at gmail.com>> wrote:
>
>                 Seriously this is what 2017 has become? A bunch of
>                 snowflakes argueing whoes feelings are hurt? Seriously
>                 grow up people, the world is not full of cupcakes and
>                 rainbows.
>
>                 "Yuri is perceived by many as unreasonable as before
>                 and tries to ignore all the unwritten rules in OSM."
>
>                 I was somewhat following that email thread and there
>                 were many people sayong that yuri was unreasonable and
>                 that he was ignoring the rules for mechanical edits.
>                 Journalists are allowed to summarize the general tone
>                 of a situation without being perceived as "taking sides".
>
>                 On Nov 17, 2017 10:49 PM, "Clifford Snow"
>                 <clifford at snowandsnow.us
>                 <mailto:clifford at snowandsnow.us>> wrote:
>
>                     Andy,
>
>                     On Fri, Nov 17, 2017 at 4:10 PM, Andy Townsend
>                     <ajt1047 at gmail.com <mailto:ajt1047 at gmail.com>> wrote:
>
>                         On 17/11/2017 22:52, Clifford Snow wrote:
>>
>>                         Frederik,
>>                         I think we are all thankful for the
>>                         newsletter. And believe they are free to
>>                         publish to their own standards. However,
>>                         because they use OSM resources by publishing
>>                         on our mailing lists they need respect our
>>                         values. I don't think asking a publication to
>>                         be respectful to individuals is asking too much.
>
>                         Clifford,
>                         Being "respectful" is a two-way street.  This
>                         is a situation that's been going on for almost
>                         exactly a year now. During that time this
>                         individual has shown contempt for the OSM
>                         community, including on occasion telling
>                         outright untruths. Conversations with him were
>                         very repectful at first (conducted in
>                         changeset discussions rather than on mailing
>                         lists), but it gradually became clear that any
>                         statements such as "I have already stopped
>                         changing any objects except" were simply
>                         worthless.  At some point you have to call a
>                         lie a lie, and I can't think of a way of doing
>                         that without "being disrespectful".
>
>
>                     Absolutely. I'm only suggesting that as a
>                     community we strive to be respectful to everyone,
>                     all the time. That in no way mean that we condone
>                     bad behavior. I'm all for calling out such
>                     behavior even to the point of expelling/banning
>                     the person if reasonable attempts to get the
>                     person to change is futile. My basic belief is
>                     that all people have good intentions. Our
>                     community goal should be to bring out the best in
>                     everyone.
>
>
>                         Also, I have to object to the use of "they"
>                         and "our" in your comment.  The OSM Weekly is
>                         produced by and for people from the OSM
>                         community, exactly the same community that the
>                         mailing lists are run by and for.  The use of
>                         that sort of divisive language ("they")
>                         reminds me of a visit to South Africa back in
>                         the 90s, and not in a good way.
>
>
>                     Sorry for the poor choice of words. Now you see
>                     why I don't offer to edit or write for the OSM
>                     Weekly.  My grandfather, a former newspaper
>                     editor, would have been sadden by my lack of
>                     writing abilities.
>
>                     Best,
>                     Clifford
>                     -- 
>                     @osm_seattle
>                     osm_seattle.snowandsnow.us
>                     <http://osm_seattle.snowandsnow.us>
>                     OpenStreetMap: Maps with a human touch
>
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>
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>
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