[OSM-talk] New OSM Quick-Fix service

Yuri Astrakhan yuriastrakhan at gmail.com
Sun Oct 15 12:04:47 UTC 2017


Andu, with all due respect, you are misrepresenting things.  I have
received praises on OSM-RU channel, and that's where I got my first bug
reports and suggestions that were quickly fixed.  The current mailing
thread also received a praise from Steve. I have received a private email
explicitly praising this tool, some twitter feedback, plus, some general
encouragements for my efforts. So, despite some vocal people on one side of
the issue, claiming to represent "the community" is not accurate, as others
have expressed opposing views.  Thus, it is not as uniform as you try to
portray it, but rather, as any other conflict, deserves a thoughtful
approach to attempt to balance goals of everyone, and to find a valuable
compromise.

At the same time, judging from the fact that someone did not feel
comfortable emailing to the group, there seems to be significant toxicity
and bullying going on.  There was a number of personal attacks, which to me
seems to be a violation of our communication policies, and which I
deliberately ignore. So no, I see some people in the community may support
it, but do not want to participate in such a violent discussion. When
someone is foaming at the mouth, people tend to stay away, rather than
engage in a constructive discussion.

Luckily, there has been some valuable feedback too, and I hope our
community will be mature enough to provide more broadly.  For example,
Simon was very clear and explicit about the exact deficiencies he objected
to - something that I attempted to rectify, and will continue to improve
on.  Some other remarks, despite being presented in a bad form, lead me to
more good fixes such as a mandatory high zoom before editing. I am clearly
continuing to participate in the discussion, and try to abstain from
discussing PEOPLE, but instead concentrate on a specific IDEA being
presented in this thread, and the specific PROBLEMS it tries to solve. As a
volunteer. Without any financial benefit from anything I do. Same as many
other participants on this channel, regardless of their views. Trying to
maneuver between the abstract philosophy, various believes of what is the
"right thing to do", and the specific problems and solutions.

P.S. @mmd, sorry for not replying earlier. I suspect you meant it as an "ad
absurdum" argument. Thing is, Wikidata does use wiki pages to store bot
states. Mostly bots generate various talk pages and templates, and users
sometimes modify those talk pages to control the bots. Yet, this tool has
nothing to do with Wikidata, so it is a moot point to discuss storing OSM
metadata there. See my reply about the "nobot" tag. I think it would help
to partially heal the bot-nobot divide, as it gives control over each
object to editors, and allows mini-bots.

And one last thing.  Something that has helped me many times to find
COMPROMISE in a forum discussion. When replying, let's try to sum up the
opponent's position and the reasons for that position, and explain why you
think it is incorrect. Perhaps we should learn from the high school debate
class?  Sorry for the long email.

On Sun, Oct 15, 2017 at 6:38 AM, ajt1047 at gmail.com <ajt1047 at gmail.com>
wrote:

> On 15/10/2017 11:04, Christoph Hormann wrote:
>
>> On Sunday 15 October 2017, Yuri Astrakhan wrote:
>>
>>> [...] I was following up on the Christoph Hormann's
>>>>> idea of the "bot=no" tag, to "allow mappers to opt out of bot
>>>>> edits on a case-by-case basis."
>>>>>
>>>> No, you were not, likely because you misunderstood my suggestion
>>>> which is likely because you don't get how OpenStreetMap is working
>>>> overall.
>>>>
>>>> I would strongly advise you to reconsider your whole approach to
>>>> OpenStreetMap and to interacting with the OpenStreetMap community.
>>>>
>>> Christoph, kindly explain, instead of making snide remarks. You have
>>> not added to the discussion, but instead raised the level of toxicity
>>> of this channel even further.  Note that several people have already
>>> noted that this channel is toxic and refused to participate in it,
>>> rather than being productive and beneficial to everyone involved.
>>>
>> I rest my case.
>>
>>
> Yuri,
>
> In English there is a common phrase "which part of **** *** do you not
> understand" (expletive removed because people offended by such words may be
> reading).
>
> This thread https://lists.openstreetmap.org/pipermail/talk/2017-October/
> thread.html#79145 currently has replies from 9 people.  1 is asking a
> question but all other replies are entirely negative (including comments
> such as "I'm appalled" and "that isn't acceptable behaviour").
>
> Christoph Hormann's comment above is not a snide remark; it's entirely
> reasonable based on your actions so far - for an example of that see Tomas'
> reply earlier in the thread, or indeed almost any of the other interactions
> that you've had with the OSM community.
>
> Best Regards,
> Andu
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
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> talk at openstreetmap.org
> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
>
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