[OSM-talk] Highway=trunk : harmonization between countries ?

Matej Lieskovský lieskovsky.matej at gmail.com
Sat Feb 24 10:16:22 UTC 2018


One last observation:
Austria, Czech Republic, Denmark, Germany, Netherlands, Poland and Slovakia
all use a similar system where highway=trunk is "motorway-like", with trunk
either implying motorroad status, or being a prerequisite for it.

On 24 February 2018 at 11:08, Matej Lieskovský <lieskovsky.matej at gmail.com>
wrote:

> 1)
> Trunk in Czechia is "motorway-like".
> Feel free to document local conventions here: https://wiki.
> openstreetmap.org/wiki/Highway_classes
> Also, see this: https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:
> highway%3Dtrunk#International_equivalence
>
> 2)
> Highway classification is not really a measurable thing. I'd compare it to
> how admin_level works. There is some equivalence, but everyone understands
> that admin_level=4 means something slightly different in Czechia and in the
> US.
>
> I'd be very careful about global definitions as we might easily end up
> with entire countries without even a highway=primary. I mean, how can
> Brazil have unpaved trunk roads? Does Iceland get to keep its trunk road
> when it has only one city of more than 35000 inhabitants? Do we get to keep
> trunk roads when there are several cities in China with more people than
> the entire Czech Republic? By similar logic the outer border of Czech
> Republic should be approximately admin_level=4 (to match US states) and
> trust me that EU integration is not yet at the point where that would be
> acceptable. :)
>
> Let's get the wiki filled in, we might be wiser afterwards.
>
> @djakk: Thanks for making the discussion a little more organized.
>
> On 24 February 2018 at 10:30, djakk djakk <djakk.djakk at gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> There is 2 « independant » things in the debate :
>> 1) trunk definition - what is a trunk, a motorway-like road - based on
>> physical characteristics- or a super-primary road - based on the importance
>> ?
>> 2) wordwilde trunk definition ? - should we have the same definition all
>> over the world of what is highway= trunk ? (value that are
>> country-dependant are not that common, aren’t they ?)
>>
>> djakk
>>
>>
>> Le sam. 24 févr. 2018 à 10:07, Matej Lieskovský <
>> lieskovsky.matej at gmail.com> a écrit :
>>
>>> 1) If you want to look at a professional map of Czechia, I'd recommend
>>> www.mapy.cz over google maps as that is the most used and far more
>>> detailed map.
>>> 2) I agree that the discontinuities are ugly, but they reflect the state
>>> on the ground. That section around Sulec is a trunk instead of a primary
>>> due to the fact that it is a section of future motorway built to motorway
>>> standard. While your system heavily preferences "importance" of roads, our
>>> local system reflects reality. Declaring the entire road from Pilsen to
>>> České Budějovice as trunk due to its importance loses the information that
>>> there is a section that was built as a motorway link to Písek. I can
>>> already tell that the road is important because it links Pilsen and České
>>> Budějovice (by looking at the map), but I also want to know that it was
>>> built as a primary road and not as a trunk - that means that I'm going to
>>> expect more single-level junctions and only two lanes for most of the way.
>>>
>>> I agree, our trunk roads are a little fuzzy on their definition, but
>>> elevating random primary roads to trunk is a loss of data for us. Touching
>>> anything else than reclassifying primary to trunk et vice versa will
>>> certainly be considered as vandalism in Czechia.
>>>
>>> You are demonstrating that you can guess the road class from other data.
>>> I think it's cute, but does not match on-the-ground data in countries where
>>> road classification is well-defined.
>>>
>>> Look, I've spent a lot of time on this and I have better things to do.
>>> Fill in the info for your regions on the wiki and then we can see what we
>>> can do. Until then, bear in mind that "harmonising" European roads will
>>> likely get you banned. I don't want to sound like I'm threatening you, but
>>> I've probably spent all the time I'm willing to spend on arguing with some
>>> random person who wants to break our local road classification system
>>> "because it will look nicer".
>>>
>>> On 24 February 2018 at 07:59, djakk djakk <djakk.djakk at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Yes, but this rendering does not change when a road crosses a border ^^
>>>>
>>>> djakk
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Le sam. 24 févr. 2018 à 05:43, JB <jbosm at mailoo.org> a écrit :
>>>>
>>>>> There is something I don't get.
>>>>> Draw primary the same color as trunk and you have no more «
>>>>> discontinuity »?
>>>>> In France, some commercial map (the most sold, I think) use a different
>>>>> rendering for trunk and primary, because you drive faster on trunks. I
>>>>> like it, I think they like it, because they have been using this
>>>>> rendering for decades.
>>>>> JB.
>>>>>
>>>>> Le 24/02/2018 à 04:45, Fernando Trebien a écrit :
>>>>> > As an exercise (and I'm curious about your thoughts on this), I found
>>>>> > the main routes between place=city within Czechia (didn't have time
>>>>> to
>>>>> > include cities in adjacent countries, bear that in mind).
>>>>> >
>>>>> > Here's the result [1] using the old colour scheme (motorway=blue,
>>>>> > trunk=green, primary=red; with a little mistake: secondary=yellow).
>>>>> > Top image uses the current classifications, and bottom image is the
>>>>> > result if city-city routes are classified as trunks. Looks very
>>>>> > similar to most other maps. Just by looking at it, it's quite obvious
>>>>> > which is the main route between each pair of cities. As expected, the
>>>>> > method also found out the best ways through and around Praha when
>>>>> > going across it. This could also be slightly improved - for example,
>>>>> > with little extra time, it is easier to recommend going through route
>>>>> > 6 and then Karlovarská than through route 5 and Bucharova.
>>>>> >
>>>>> > I've checked the three small secondary segments using Street View.
>>>>> > Their physical structure is quite good. If still considered
>>>>> > undersirable, there are alternative main ways that increase the total
>>>>> > time of travel very slightly. Not all routers agreed on taking them
>>>>> > anyway.
>>>>> >
>>>>> > [1] https://i.imgur.com/qFGSveX.jpg
>>>>> >
>>>>> > _______________________________________________
>>>>> > talk mailing list
>>>>> > talk at openstreetmap.org
>>>>> > https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> talk mailing list
>>>>> talk at openstreetmap.org
>>>>> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> talk mailing list
>>>> talk at openstreetmap.org
>>>> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
> On 24 February 2018 at 10:39, djakk djakk <djakk.djakk at gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> Matej, you don’t have to answer quickly, you can answer one time per week
>> if you prefer, the strong arguments will still weight well :)
>>
>> djakk
>>
>>
>> Le sam. 24 févr. 2018 à 10:30, djakk djakk <djakk.djakk at gmail.com> a
>> écrit :
>>
>>> There is 2 « independant » things in the debate :
>>> 1) trunk definition - what is a trunk, a motorway-like road - based on
>>> physical characteristics- or a super-primary road - based on the importance
>>> ?
>>> 2) wordwilde trunk definition ? - should we have the same definition all
>>> over the world of what is highway= trunk ? (value that are
>>> country-dependant are not that common, aren’t they ?)
>>>
>>> djakk
>>>
>>>
>>> Le sam. 24 févr. 2018 à 10:07, Matej Lieskovský <
>>> lieskovsky.matej at gmail.com> a écrit :
>>>
>>>> 1) If you want to look at a professional map of Czechia, I'd recommend
>>>> www.mapy.cz over google maps as that is the most used and far more
>>>> detailed map.
>>>> 2) I agree that the discontinuities are ugly, but they reflect the
>>>> state on the ground. That section around Sulec is a trunk instead of a
>>>> primary due to the fact that it is a section of future motorway built to
>>>> motorway standard. While your system heavily preferences "importance" of
>>>> roads, our local system reflects reality. Declaring the entire road from
>>>> Pilsen to České Budějovice as trunk due to its importance loses the
>>>> information that there is a section that was built as a motorway link to
>>>> Písek. I can already tell that the road is important because it links
>>>> Pilsen and České Budějovice (by looking at the map), but I also want to
>>>> know that it was built as a primary road and not as a trunk - that means
>>>> that I'm going to expect more single-level junctions and only two lanes for
>>>> most of the way.
>>>>
>>>> I agree, our trunk roads are a little fuzzy on their definition, but
>>>> elevating random primary roads to trunk is a loss of data for us. Touching
>>>> anything else than reclassifying primary to trunk et vice versa will
>>>> certainly be considered as vandalism in Czechia.
>>>>
>>>> You are demonstrating that you can guess the road class from other
>>>> data. I think it's cute, but does not match on-the-ground data in countries
>>>> where road classification is well-defined.
>>>>
>>>> Look, I've spent a lot of time on this and I have better things to do.
>>>> Fill in the info for your regions on the wiki and then we can see what we
>>>> can do. Until then, bear in mind that "harmonising" European roads will
>>>> likely get you banned. I don't want to sound like I'm threatening you, but
>>>> I've probably spent all the time I'm willing to spend on arguing with some
>>>> random person who wants to break our local road classification system
>>>> "because it will look nicer".
>>>>
>>>> On 24 February 2018 at 07:59, djakk djakk <djakk.djakk at gmail.com>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Yes, but this rendering does not change when a road crosses a border ^^
>>>>>
>>>>> djakk
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Le sam. 24 févr. 2018 à 05:43, JB <jbosm at mailoo.org> a écrit :
>>>>>
>>>>>> There is something I don't get.
>>>>>> Draw primary the same color as trunk and you have no more «
>>>>>> discontinuity »?
>>>>>> In France, some commercial map (the most sold, I think) use a
>>>>>> different
>>>>>> rendering for trunk and primary, because you drive faster on trunks. I
>>>>>> like it, I think they like it, because they have been using this
>>>>>> rendering for decades.
>>>>>> JB.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Le 24/02/2018 à 04:45, Fernando Trebien a écrit :
>>>>>> > As an exercise (and I'm curious about your thoughts on this), I
>>>>>> found
>>>>>> > the main routes between place=city within Czechia (didn't have time
>>>>>> to
>>>>>> > include cities in adjacent countries, bear that in mind).
>>>>>> >
>>>>>> > Here's the result [1] using the old colour scheme (motorway=blue,
>>>>>> > trunk=green, primary=red; with a little mistake: secondary=yellow).
>>>>>> > Top image uses the current classifications, and bottom image is the
>>>>>> > result if city-city routes are classified as trunks. Looks very
>>>>>> > similar to most other maps. Just by looking at it, it's quite
>>>>>> obvious
>>>>>> > which is the main route between each pair of cities. As expected,
>>>>>> the
>>>>>> > method also found out the best ways through and around Praha when
>>>>>> > going across it. This could also be slightly improved - for example,
>>>>>> > with little extra time, it is easier to recommend going through
>>>>>> route
>>>>>> > 6 and then Karlovarská than through route 5 and Bucharova.
>>>>>> >
>>>>>> > I've checked the three small secondary segments using Street View.
>>>>>> > Their physical structure is quite good. If still considered
>>>>>> > undersirable, there are alternative main ways that increase the
>>>>>> total
>>>>>> > time of travel very slightly. Not all routers agreed on taking them
>>>>>> > anyway.
>>>>>> >
>>>>>> > [1] https://i.imgur.com/qFGSveX.jpg
>>>>>> >
>>>>>> > _______________________________________________
>>>>>> > talk mailing list
>>>>>> > talk at openstreetmap.org
>>>>>> > https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>> talk mailing list
>>>>>> talk at openstreetmap.org
>>>>>> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> talk mailing list
>>>>> talk at openstreetmap.org
>>>>> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.openstreetmap.org/pipermail/talk/attachments/20180224/9921af34/attachment-0001.html>


More information about the talk mailing list