[OSM-talk] We're erasing our history in wiki

Ilya Zverev ilya at zverev.info
Tue Apr 23 09:31:17 UTC 2019

Frederik, thanks for expressing your point of view. I always admire your posts and occasionally translate them for the Russian audience. I know I cannot change your (or anybody’s) view, but I hope in time I can explain you mine.

Frederik Ramm wrote:
> I'm tired of this gatekeeper nonsense. Your "OSM must grow up" talk at
> SOTM in Aizu-Wakamatsu was full of examples where you personally would
> like OSM to change direction (or perhaps, start moving in a direction of
> your choice), and others didn't, and you framed all this as "stagnation"
> like you're doing here, again.
No, I was talking about the imminent change that is already happening, whether you want it or not. The community becomes more mature — with different speed in different countries, but still. OSM is a map for businesses now, and with your anti-commerce rhetoric you actually helped make that change.
> Someone has made a decision to do something (delete a wiki page), you
> don't like it, and somehow you manage to accuse the spirit that led to
> the decision of being responsible for stagnation.
No, I was responding particularly to a reply that implied that if I found a convoluted way to dig into the history and was lucky enough to find an archived page on some third-party site, that means everything is great and we don’t need to do anything, let alone start a “hype” on mailing lists.
> In the next minute, when you suggest that something should be introduced
> and someone else says "not so fast, let's think of the negative effects
> first" you'll accuse them of being responsible for stagnation.
Because time and time again, in OSM and in the real world in Russia I see that phrase as a means to stop ideas and any action. We need to think more about positive effects. OpenStreetMap is sturdy enough — thanks to your work as well — so we can try doing wrong actions and burn money on silly things. Without mistakes there is no progress — and we’ve built an impressive and reliable system of preventing any mistakes.
> It's just not credible any more, coming from you. All those evil gate
> keepers you're seeing everywhere, holding OSM back from realising its
> full potential, the old guard of secret power brokers that stands in the
> way of greatness, blah blah blah. It's just cheap rhetorics to give your
> personal vision more weight.
Yeah, okay. Not like we have people on the Board who have served for 7+ years with OSM 14 years old. Not like we don’t have any server admins that have worked on the project less than 12 years ago and any contingency plan for when they get tired. I see that everything in OpenStreetMap, from code to tagging to using the data is governed not by policies, but by a will of a few people — and prove me wrong. I keep the same rhetorics for years, because nothing has changed in years.
> Make your statement, say what you like or dislike, just like everyone
> else, without resorting to "SEE, THIS IS WHY THERE IS NO PROGRESS!!!!"
> at every opportunity.
What do you like and dislike in the current state of OpenStreetMap?


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