[OSM-talk] nomoj de internaciaj objektoj / nazwy obiektów międzynarodowych ? names of international objects

[Maarten Deen]

On 2019-12-05 22:12, Tomek wrote:

> EN:
> In what language should the names of interstate objects be: seas /
> bays, continents, oceans, poles? They are not currently displayed on
> the default map(1), programs (e.g. OsmAnd, iD and JOSM editors) use
> the name:LANGUAGE label, so the content of the "name" label is
> ideological only, not practical.

I disagree that the name tag is ideological. Maybe you use the wrong 
word and meant theoretical?

> Currently they are in English, which cannot be accepted, Great Britain
> and the USA are not masters of the whole world.

As I don't know where the nodes are I can not check if your comment is 
correct, but while I understand your problem, this seems more like a 
frustrated rant.

> Suggestion 1: for smaller seas, I suggest adding names in all official
> / main languages ​​of adjacent countries, so instead of "Black
> Sea" there will be:
> Karadeniz Marea Neagră Чорне море | Черно море |
> Чёрное море | შავი ზღვა

I get nothing displayed at the Black Sea. It is only defined by the 
coastline, there is no (multi)polygon defining its boundaries. Is there 
a node?

The adjacent Caspian sea is displayed as دریاچه خزر which is not the 
complete name tag (Каспийское море / Хәзәр дәнизи / دریاچه خزر) but 
looks to me the name:fa (Farsi).
For me, that is very bad since I can not read Farsi so I don't know what 
is written there. Same applies to Chinese, Japanese, Korean, and a whole 
host of languages that do not use the latin script. So your described 
problem does not limit itself to non-English speakers, it also applies 
to the same Brits and US Americans that you rant about being the masters 
of the world.
IMHO Openstreetmap does try to be politically and nation independent.

Still, it is a Good Idea to have one standard (language) to communicate 
or define things, like everything meant for an international public in 
the wiki is English and the tag system is English.

> For larger seas (with more neighboring countries, so the name would
> exceed the 255 character limit in OSM) and for continents, oceans and
> poles you need to come up with something else:
> 
> Suggestion 2a: remove the "name" tag completely

It should be looked at if this is a viable option. JOSM already uses the 
localized names to display names in JOSM itself. E.g. the afore 
mentioned multipolygon for the Caspian Sea displays as "multipolygon 
("Caspian Sea", 80 members, incomplete) [id: 3.987.743]" for me. It does 
not show the name tag.
For me that is usually the best option. It would be great if this could 
be extended to the main map, but for that you would probably need to 
make a different captions overlay.

> Suggestion 2b: use the name in a neutral language, i.e. planned or
> extinct: Lingvo Internacia Esperanto (EO), Interlingua (IA), Ido (IO),
> Latin (LA), I don't know Latin, so I would need help.

Does that solve the non-latin alphabets? I don't know if their 
understanding of the latin alphabet is as bad as my understanding of the 
non-latin alphabets.

> How can I resolve a problem with the "wikipedia" label?

There is a wikidata label, but that only defines what it is, not what 
name should be rendered.

> Suggestion 3: for a place with fewer names, I suggest using several
> labels:
> wikipedia: ru = Чёрное море + wikipedia: ro = Marea Neagră,

And which of those will be on the map?

> for other places:
> Suggestion 4a: remove the label "wikipedia" and leave only "wikidata",

I agree that it is strange to have (e.g. for the Caspian Sea 
multipolygon 3987743) wikipedia=en:Caspian Sea when it is not in 
England. Is there a reason for that other than historic? Since there is 
also a wikidata link.

> Suggestion 4b: add links in a neutral language: wikipedia=ia: Mar
> Nigre

Why is Anguilla a neutral language? Mar Nigre looks French to me, why is 
that a neutral language?
Should it be Esperanto? Why would that be a neutral language since it is 
written in latin alphabet? Also Esperanto to me seems more like a 
western language than an eastern/asian language.

> Suggestion 4c: add more links, but in which languages?
> 
> 1. unless mapped as relation with other tags (natural = bay/water),
> but the woodpecker user deleted the relation for the Black Sea:
> https://www.openstreetmap.org/relation/7160849/history

It is better to link to the changeset, because that gives a comment and 
can be loaded easily:
https://www.openstreetmap.org/changeset/77922074

I'm not sure if I agree with the reason of deletion. Currently there is 
no name displayed and finding the node is difficult.

Your problem is a universal problem on any platform that spans the globe 
and IMHO there is no one answer to it. For one I would love to see all 
name tags rendered in something I can at least read (i.e. latin script). 
For that I frequently have to use the transport map layer so I can at 
least read what city in China (for example) I'm looking at.

Regards,
Maarten