[OSM-talk] Roadmap for deprecation of name tags in OSM

pangoSE pangose at riseup.net
Sun Aug 9 12:56:38 UTC 2020


Ok. I agree with that, there is nothing hindering OSM from hosting the wikibase instance on the same machine/cluster/whatever as the main osm database which btw. seems to lack a name.

James <james2432 at gmail.com> skrev: (9 augusti 2020 14:49:36 CEST)
>Network calls incur a performance hit. I didn't say it was complicated.
>
>On Sun., Aug. 9, 2020, 8:46 a.m. pangoSE, <pangose at riseup.net> wrote:
>
>>
>> I disagree. With (permanent) unique ids is trivial and the overhead
>is IMO
>> neglible.
>>
>> Its not rocket science to query an API endpoint from any programming
>> language. All our data consumers are already doing this.
>>
>> I made a simple map in a few hours that query both overpass and
>wikidata
>> based on the osmid to find links to images of shelters. See
>> https://github.com/pangoSE/sheltermap
>>
>> James <james2432 at gmail.com> skrev: (9 augusti 2020 13:59:40 CEST)
>>>
>>> Not to mention the additional overhead of conflating two databases
>to get
>>> something essential like a name
>>>
>>> On Sun., Aug. 9, 2020, 7:57 a.m. Alan Mackie, <aamackie at gmail.com>
>wrote:
>>>
>>>> This seems like a bad idea.
>>>>
>>>> Name tags are generally very easy to verify on the ground. It is
>not
>>>> always as easy to tell if a shop with a certain name belongs to a
>specific
>>>> wikidata entry, especially in jurisdictions that are less litigious
>when it
>>>> comes to trademarks.
>>>>
>>>> We also should not be doing bulk name changes until we have
>verified
>>>> that the signage on the individual locations has actually changed.
>>>> Depending on the brand these could take years to ripple through to
>the
>>>> individual stores, and particularly 'historic' stores may retain
>old
>>>> branding as part of a conscious effort not to irk locals. Branding
>changes
>>>> in the Wikidata would likely be over-applied.
>>>>
>>>> Abandoning the name tags for chains would essentially be
>carte-blanche
>>>> permission for automated edits. As it stands now, a disagreement
>between
>>>> OSM name and Wikidata name may be a useful indicator that resurvey
>is
>>>> needed. If we abandon name tags we open the door to the
>introduction of
>>>> dodgy data that isn't caught by any of our QA tools because it
>doesn't even
>>>> have a changeset.
>>>>
>>>> If "duplication"  is really an issue, I would prefer to remove all
>>>> Wikidata tags than to depreciate names where they exist. Forcing
>>>> contributors to check an independant database before uploading
>survey
>>>> results seems like a lot of extra effort for a volunteer driven
>project.
>>>>
>>>> On Sun, 9 Aug 2020 at 12:11, pangoSE <pangose at riseup.net> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> These are valid concerns. See my response to James.
>>>>> If Wikimedia should become uncooperative we could easily set up
>our own
>>>>> wikibase installation. See https://www.wbstack.com/
>>>>>
>>>>> It takes a few minutes plus some configuration time.
>>>>>
>>>>> It would also be a new and currently unnecessary drain on OSMF's
>>>> resources.
>>>>
>>>> In fact this might be much better than forcing our data into
>wikidata
>>>>> which is very tied to education and does not accept all our
>objects that
>>>>> have names currently.
>>>>>
>>>>> In case we take this route I would recommend having another prefix
>than
>>>>> Q for our unique ids.
>>>>>
>>>>> Cheers
>>>>>
>>>>> Mateusz Konieczny via talk <talk at openstreetmap.org> skrev: (9
>augusti
>>>>> 2020 12:16:33 CEST)
>>>>>>
>>>>>> or has downtime? or deletes data/items used by OSM? or bans OSM
>>>>>> mappers?
>>>>>> or refuses to ban vandal/troll/harasser? or fails to ban them
>quickly?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Aug 9, 2020, 11:45 by james2432 at gmail.com:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> is there a contingency plan if wikipedia/wikimedia ceases to
>exist?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On Sun., Aug. 9, 2020, 4:29 a.m. pangoSE, <pangose at riseup.net>
>wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I suggest we create a roadmap for deprecating of storing and
>updating
>>>>>> names in OSM for objects with a Wikidata tag.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> The rationale is explained here:
>>>>>> https://josm.openstreetmap.de/ticket/19655
>>>>>>
>>>>>> This of course affects the whole project and data consumers as
>well.
>>>>>> Every OSM user will have to become a Wikidata user as well to
>edit the
>>>>>> names or add name references (through the editors)
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Substantial changes will have to be made:
>>>>>> * nominatim will need to support fetching names from wikidata
>somehow.
>>>>>> It could probably be done on the fly.
>>>>>> * openstreetmap.org will need to fetch from wikidata when
>displaying
>>>>>> any object.
>>>>>> * rendering the standard map will have to support fetching from
>>>>>> wikidata.
>>>>>> * all editors would have to fetch and enable editing of Wikidata
>>>>>> objects.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> These seems like large burdens to dump on open source developers.
>>>>
>>>>> * maybe it no longer makes sense to have 2 separate logins? We
>should
>>>>>> unify the logging in as much as possible. Ideas are welcome on
>how to do
>>>>>> that. Perhaps retire signing up as OSM user on osm.org and ask
>users
>>>>>> to create a Wikimedia account instead and log in with that?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I'm not sure if I have a Wikidata account so this is a non-issue
>for
>>>> me.
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>> I personally don't see any problems connecting Wikimedia and OSM
>>>>>> closer than the islands they are today.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> As mentioned in the ticket above data consumers like Mapbox
>already
>>>>>> prefer Wikidata names. I'm guessing thats because they are simply
>better
>>>>>> quality, better modeled, better referenced and better protected
>against
>>>>>> vandalism.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> WDYT?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Cheers
>>>>>> pangoSE
>>>>>> Ps I choose this list because this not only relates to tagging,
>but to
>>>>>> the wider
>ecosystem._______________________________________________
>>>>>> talk mailing list
>>>>>> talk at openstreetmap.org
>>>>>> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
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>>>
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