[OSM-talk] OTG rule, borders & mountains existing | Re: Crimea situation - on the ground

[stevea]

Very well stated, Colin.  I agree that "independent verifiability" is at the heart of OTG and what we mean to distill from it as crucially important and a tenet of OSM that we can all agree upon (well, I hope so, anyway).

By explicitly stating that John Random Public can "consult the source" (freely, in all senses) to determine "what is" even (or especially) if something is NOT on-the-ground, we actually DO largely encompass many of the exceptions of "but I can't SEE it on the ground."  We may have more work to do to be more explicit, but this goes a long way:  thank you!

SteveA

> On Feb 8, 2020, at 9:42 AM, Colin Smale <colin.smale at xs4all.nl> wrote:
> 
> On 2020-02-08 18:03, stevea wrote:
> 
>> See, "the on the ground rule," to the best of my ability to determine it (an exception is your opinion as you explicitly express here, and that's part of the problem with it), isn't clearly defined and it needs the elasticity of such ad hoc exceptions.  It doesn't say (explicitly, anywhere, except in your exception) "we ask people there and look at books, other maps, Wikipedia, travel books, organizations...if the name is used in reality."  You do (here, as an "exception," by way of clarifying your understanding of OTG) but if all of that is true, OSM should say so:  formally and as fully as possible.
>> 
> The most important aspect of the "on the ground" rule is that things are independently verifiable, i.e. given the evidence, anybody would come to the same conclusion. Physical evidence is obviously very useful - for example, either a highway is present, or it is not. But other sources, provided they are freely accessible, can also provide facts that are sufficiently verifiable. In the case of the US-CA border, I guess the treaty or whatever is publicly accessible, so there can be no arguments about where the border is in a legal sense. Of course not all boundaries are fully specified in treaties, but I suspect this one is.
>  
> So I suggest the "On The Ground" rule should be replaced by a requirement for independent verifiability; our traditional definition of OTG is sufficient but not necessary for compliance.
>  
> Independent viability means (to me) a random member of the public, with no special privileges, and without payment, and at any time, should be able to "consult the source".
>  
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