[OSM-talk] [Tagging] nomoj de internaciaj objektoj / nazwy obiektów międzynarodowych / names of international objects

[Mario Frasca]

On 24/02/2020 06:53, Joseph Eisenberg wrote:
> It is quite reasonable to question the use of English in the `name=`
> tag for the Baltic Sea.
>
> It would be reasonable to stop using the name= tag for oceans,
> continents and international seas, if we can develop a tag which would
> specify which of the `name:<language code>=` tags should be treated as
> the primary ones. This would make it more feasible to design a
> rendering for the Baltic Sea, the Mediterranean, and other seas
> surrounding by a large number of language areas.
>
> For the oceans and continents there may not be much use in a name tag,
> since these labels only make sense on a global map. A map designer or
> user can pick the language in that case.
>
> - Joseph Eisenberg

As far as I can understand, Tomek is making two points, one about the 
use of the `name` tag for objects where the English language hardly 
applies (seas surrounded by language areas which do not include English, 
or only marginally so), and one about the communication language in this 
list.  This second point has attracted most attention, and has made it 
hard to keep a constructive discussion about the first.

2: my writing back in French, and hints to Tomek to do the same, or to 
choose German, was a way to shush away the language fight, and keep the 
discussion going.  I finally switched to Italian in despair, because I 
wanted Tomek to feel like I feel looking at his two hardly intelligible 
niche languages, none of them listed in 
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_languages_by_total_number_of_speakers, 
nor appearing in the 1997 George Weber’s list of 10 most influential 
languages.

3: I think there's a third point related to internationalization, not at 
this surface language level, but deeper, when presenting concepts behind 
concrete tags in a way that would be more recognizable by non-European 
mappers.  (I include into "European" everybody with roots in Europe.)  I 
think this is a relevant point, not least because I keep seeing edits in 
Panama changing `unclassified` to `track` only because (this is my 
interpretation): the road is unpaved, people prefer looking at pictures 
than reading, the picture for the agricultural `track` looks much more 
recognizable than the one for the `unclassified` road, possibly and 
marginally because `unclassified` does not ring any bell outside the UK.

1: at some point in the discussion, I myself suggested adding a 
`label:<language code>=` tag, so that larger water masses would have 
several names, each positioned near the corresponding language area.

1: also someone (sorry for not looking it up) mentioned "the" map having 
become "the map" not intentionally, but as if by chance or 
misunderstanding.  OSM is a database, and when looking at 
openstreetmap.org you see a possible rendering, in the default 
language.  look at openstreetmap.fr and it will be in French, or 
openstreetmap.de/karte.html for German.

1: actually, please think about the three above examples (.org, .fr, 
.de), and you might see that indeed the `name` tag is out of place, 
since "the map" does not exist outside of the example running on 
openstreetmap.org.  But, Tomek, I would start by making the point there, 
and suggest their renderer to be fixed, and to be heard you need to 
write in English, since you would be speaking to British people.

Tomek, you have a point in what you write, but please have yourself 
heard, and not just experienced as nasty and conflictive.  People, let's 
try not to focus on point '2' alone. and again Tomek, please help us 
here, do choose a "top 3" language in your communications.

https://web.archive.org/web/20110927062910/http://www2.ignatius.edu/faculty/turner/languages.htm

ciao, MF