[HOT] Meeting with WB about MapMaker?

Martin Holmgren d95marty at gmail.com
Fri Feb 3 02:29:23 GMT 2012


Hi again!

Maybe I should have written "Google as a partner over HOT". I'm not too knowledgeable about how US non-profit organizations work, but it seems to me that a partnership with the World Bank (and the UN) could open some doors to new ways of allowing HOT to help more efficiently. Contacts with people within these organizations, more exposure in the selected countries, maybe even funding?

I have second thought on my choice of the word "partner" as well. :-) Maybe I should have used "endorse" instead, as in "...the World Bank's reasons for choosing to endorse the use of Google data and tools over OSM and HOT".

As for what is desired: that the data collected through the World Bank/GMM initiative is also made available via an open license, maximizing the potential use of the information where it's most needed.

So maybe it's not so much of an "us" (OSM community) and "them" (WB/GMM) but more about trying to maximize both the general and short term good (focus and resources to crisis mapping) while not sacrificing the long term good (open licensed data). We could all work together on this, right? That would be very desired.

Take care,
Marty

3 feb 2012 kl. 02.15 skrev Kate Chapman:

> I'm curious what people think partnering with OSM would mean. You
> can't sign an agreement with the community for example.  The World
> Bank or Google or anyone is free to use the data is they want.
> 
> What is desired?
> 
> (I'm going to be attending the meeting and would like to have some opinions)
> 
> 
> 
> On Fri, Feb 3, 2012 at 6:39 AM, Martin Holmgren <d95marty at gmail.com> wrote:
>> Hi!
>> 
>> Good luck at the meeting, it will be very interesting to hear the World
>> Bank's reasons for choosing Google as partner over OSM. There must have been
>> some analysis of the different options, right? I would imagine that being
>> extra important for Aleem Walji, for the obvious risk of his past at
>> Google.org affecting the decision process. So, please post what you have
>> learned back to the list after the meeting.
>> 
>> Is that too much to ask Google? They don't take requests....
>> 
>> 
>> Very true. But at the same time, my view is that Google rapidly are reaching
>> a tipping point in the public eye, where the "Don't be evil" mantra is so
>> watered down that they either will have to drop it (and lose some of its
>> staff in the process, who are loyal to that principle) or start acting very
>> differently in some areas. Using the crowd as free labor for improving its
>> map offerings being one, privacy issues another.
>> 
>> One way for Google to look better than they do right now would be to make
>> the results of all purely crowdsourced efforts using GMM available under
>> licensing conditions that are compatible with CC BY-SA and ODbL. Of course
>> all proprietary data, including edits to such data in crowdsourcing efforts,
>> need to be excluded from the data that is made more freely available.
>> 
>> Best regards,
>> Marty
>> 
>> PS Yes they have lawyers. But not ones that care about open data, only about
>> not getting sued. Clearly no one who knew any of this in practice was
>> consulted for the MoU. But yes, talking about open data the concepts can be
>> obscure ... I tried to illustrate the realities with some mapping
>> stories: http://brainoff.com/weblog/2012/02/02/1756
>> 
>> PPS I don't think that's the root cause for the Bank (though it's clearly
>> something OSM needs to improve. note, I don't think GMM has the best UI
>> either). Rather, I think they are seduced by the association with the most
>> powerful company in the world, which is sexy.
>> 
>> * Mikel Maron * +14152835207 @mikel s:mikelmaron
>> 
>> ________________________________
>> From: Chris Blow <cgblow at gmail.com>
>> To: hot <hot at openstreetmap.org>
>> Sent: Thursday, February 2, 2012 5:12 PM
>> Subject: Re: [HOT] Meeting with WB about MapMaker?
>> 
>> Hi Mikel,
>> 
>> While there are several clear solutions that are unrealistic to propose in
>> your meeting, I would just like to see a tool that allows users to to export
>> data most of the data that they create in Google Maps.
>> 
>> Is that too much to ask? I can see that a technical barrier would be an way
>> to differentiate between original user data entry and modifications of
>> existing data. If someone edits a big interchange with a 5 year history of
>> 99% proprietary edits, Google isn't going to give that data back. But if you
>> are mapping completely new roads and POIs in the developing world ... you
>> should be able to do a significant export.
>> 
>> PS I don't understand how the WB got itself into this, aren't they all
>> lawyers? How can OSM make it clearer that there is a cost to using
>> proprietary data? It has a toxic touch.
>> 
>> PPS it seems like better UX and design at OSM could be the root cause of
>> them working with Google in the first place — does this seem accurate? Or
>> are there deeper architectural/technical/business reasons that WB is going
>> with Google?
>> 
>> 
>> c
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> On Feb 2, 2012, at 12:30 PM, Mikel Maron wrote:
>> 
>> They're talking about me. Don't get too excited. I'll probably have a lot
>> more to say soon. Would love to hear some feedback ...
>> 
>> * Mikel Maron * +14152835207 @mikel s:mikelmaron
>> 
>> ________________________________
>> From: Iván Sánchez Ortega <ivan at sanchezortega.es>
>> To: hot at openstreetmap.org
>> Sent: Thursday, February 2, 2012 1:37 PM
>> Subject: [HOT] Meeting with WB about MapMaker?
>> 
>> Hi all,
>> 
>> 
>> A news item got my attention a few minutes ago:
>> 
>> http://techpresident.com/news/21709/google-world-bank-deal-ask-too-much-crowd
>> 
>> Quote:
>> 
>> «Aleem Walji, practice manager of the World Bank's innovation practice, said
>> Thursday that he would be sitting down with people from [...] the
>> open-source
>> mapping group OpenStreetMap to discuss a partnership between the bank and
>> Google that would see the search giant's Google Map Maker tool put to use in
>> developing countries.»
>> 
>> 
>> I'm wondering if they refer to someone from the OSM Foundation, or someone
>> from HOT. I'd love to see some feedback regarding this issue over this
>> mailing list.
>> 
>> 
>> Best,
>> --
>> Iván Sánchez Ortega <ivan at sanchezortega.es> <ivan at geonerd.org>
>> 
>> Here I come when I better go
>> I say yes when I ought to say no
>>                                                 -- Dragonnette, I come
>> around
>> 
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