[HOT] Validation

Jim Smith seth006 at blarneystone.com
Sat Aug 29 16:18:14 UTC 2015


Your question, “How can we encourage newbies to take the time to go through some training?” struck a chord with me. I still remember being a newbie in mapping a short time ago :). And I still recall my goal was to get in as quickly as possible and save some people in Nepal. I didn’t care much for the history of OSM or HOT. I didn’t want to learn how grateful people would be for my mapping. In typical style, I’ll read the manual later… let me try it first :).


Your concept of chopping everything out but the essentials is perfect. I started reading the instructions. Then when it got  bogged down in how vital mapping is, I skipped ahead to how to map. When I got done with the iD section, I felt like I could map but then it kept pushing me to learn about JOSM, Potlash, Field Papers, etc.


Before bailing out, I decided, much against the feel I got from the instructions, I would just jump in and try mapping with iD instead of spending a few more days or weeks studying all the stuff I was supposed to.


Wow, it worked! I didn’t need to become well versed in everything. I could just open a window and start putting squared boxes around buildings! And apparently doing that was useful too! Eventually, I learned how to map rivers and highways. I kept hearing about how neat JOSM was so when I had a couple of days, I loaded that and started learning it.


I started getting nice notes from John Whelan and others with suggestions on how I could be even more useful. Wow, people actually noticed what us newbies do! 


So to answer Suzan’s question on how to encourage newbies? Keep things simple. Simple instructions on basic stuff like loading iD and marking and squaring buildings. Get someone to check their work and send occasional encouraging note with some feedback (“here’s how to square your buildings” or “don’t put buildings on top of roads”, etc). Once they have the confidence, ask if them step 2 with roads and rivers or something. Or they can stay with buildings and go to advanced stuff like making a round building, etc.


That’s how I recommend you encourage newbies. I know it works because I was there :).


Jim Smith


From: Suzan Reed [mailto:suzan at suzanreed.com] 
Sent: Saturday, August 29, 2015 4:30 AM
To: Robert Banick <rbanick at gmail.com>; Martin Dittus <martin at dekstop.de>
Cc: David Toy <d at vidtoy.co.uk>; hot <hot at openstreetmap.org>
Subject: Re: [HOT] Validation


Often a tile is worked on by a number of people. Perhaps "ready for review" accommodates having a number of contributers, and also has the connotation that it's finished?

Hopefully the new Learn OSM modules and possibly text with each task pointing newbies to those modules will enlighten them on what it all means before they contribute. 

How can we encourage newbies to take the time to go through some training? 

Sent from my phone. Please forgive errors.

On August 28, 2015 10:01:28 PM "Robert Banick" <rbanick at gmail.com <mailto:rbanick at gmail.com> > wrote:

I really like both proposed wording changes - they send the right message to new contributors. My only concern is that "submit for review" implies that there *will* be review, which we can't always guarantee. 


The number of regular validators has gone way up in the last few years and that's been huge for HOT. But we still can't validate every tile. I worry that newcomers won't understand this and will get frustrated if their tile doesn't get reviewed. I'm sure some people really look forward to that green square saying they did it well.


Is there some way we can verbally message this in the TM? Maybe a popup modal the first time someone submits for review explaining these system?

Sent from Mailbox <https://www.dropbox.com/mailbox>  


On Wed, Aug 26, 2015 at 5:33 PM, Martin Dittus <martin at dekstop.de <mailto:martin at dekstop.de> > wrote:

As I’m going through the comments again (here and on my diary post) I’m starting to realise how important it is to give feedback to newcomers. Without it, few people will ever feel confident about their contributions.

In many cases it probably doesn’t even need to be feedback from an expert — it could be a comment from someone with similar experience levels. A second pair of eyes.

An important part of this is being able to ask someone for a second opinion. At a mapathon that’s easy, but where do remote mappers go?


> On 24 Aug 2015, at 19:00, David Toy <d at vidtoy.co.uk <mailto:d at vidtoy.co.uk> > wrote:
> Hi Jarmo. Welcome!
> My introduction/onboarding to HOT was almost identical to Jarmo's - and I can relate very clearly to all the points he has raised. I suspect that there are a few more lurkers on this list who will be similar.
> Pierre G's document suggests renaming the 'mark as done' button to 'submit for review'.
> A simplification of terms / altered workflow would have helped me initially. Taking the example of the done button, 'submit for review' implies that:
> - a) it's ok to make a mistake getting started - someone will catch it, and
> - b) I should expect feedback
> This helps with Jarmo's first and second scenarios, but also softens the blow when (your first) task is coldly invalidated with only four words of explanation. (Validators: that's not a criticism - I understand the time pressure.)
> Also, not all users will read the docs - while training resources are useful, these little nudges of understanding help all users - even the new ones who enthusiastically started but didn't read the instructions.
> David
> On 24 August 2015 at 17:18, Jarmo Kivekäs <jarmo.kivekas at guttula.com <mailto:jarmo.kivekas at guttula.com> > wrote:
> Hi!
> I've been lurking on the mailing list for a while, but I'm still fairly
> new to HOT. I though I'd pitch in.
> I definitely recognized myself from Martin's write up as belonging to
> the set of contributors who commit changes but don't mark tiles as done.
> Below are some reasons why I've not marked tiles as complete in the past.
> 1. I think part of the reason is that I started out mapping on my own (I
> haven't found a local community, nor was I introduced to mapping on a
> mapathon). Therefore I haven't been able to just quickly ask someone
> advice about something I'm unsure about. In these cases I've usually
> left a comment in the tasking manager about whatever I was unsure about,
> mapped the rest, but not marked the tile as done.
> Not marking the tile done is me being conservative, I guess. As a new
> mapper it is currently difficult to get feedback on the quality of your
> mapping, you pretty much needs to actively seek it out. Getting
> notifications when there are new comments on tiles you've worked on
> would be nice.
> 2. When parts of a region are already mapped (probably form before the
> activation was created) but the tiles that are already mapped are not
> marked as done. I'm reluctant to mark a grid as done without making any
> changes to it, even if it seemingly fills all the criterion for the
> task. Especially when the grid has been locked my multiple users in the
> past. "They didn't think it was as done, I'm probably missing
> something." I realize that this thinking only propagates the problem,
> since I'll just be one more user on the list.
> 3. Grids can be pretty large. Sometimes you just don't manage to map it
> completely in a short sitting. I know grids can be split, but...
> 4. Sometimes I'll for example only be mapping roads. Doing this will
> result in many tiles being checked out and changesets are generated, but
> no tiles are actually being finished.
> -- Jarmo
> On 24.08.2015 16:37, Martin Dittus wrote:
> >
> >> On 24 Aug 2015, at 11:22, john whelan <jwhelan0112 at gmail.com <mailto:jwhelan0112 at gmail.com> > wrote:
> >>
> >> I'd also like to see a third option on the tasking manger "I've done some work but not completed the tile could someone review it please." I'd rather catch errors early and some new mappers may not feel confident enough to mark a tile complete.
> >
> > Considering better workflows for “incomplete” submissions is well worthwhile. This week I found that about half of all HOT contributors never mark their first task as “done” although they contributed edits to the map.
> >
> > I’ve written it up here, with stats and a brief discussion:
> > https://www.openstreetmap.org/user/dekstop/diary/35649
> >
> > m.
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