[HOT] Gentle grump

althio althio.forum at gmail.com
Sun Mar 8 22:51:06 UTC 2015


John, Ray,

I think the quick start guide is a very neat idea. I would need to try the
workflow and a few variations for myself.

For the time being I only have reservations about the trick "
upload-and-cancel". It would be IMO simpler and better to guide people to
use consciously validation instead of faking an upload. (Validation window
and/or Shift+V)

I would say this particular aspect of the workflow is not intended for
beginners (and idiots) because it is error-prone. (What if I am still
trying to figure out what needs to be mapped? I am a beginner and do not
know or understand the differences between projects and their
instructions... What if I upload bad data? I am an idiot...)

I think you must learn to walk before you can run. This kind of tricks is
for people who want to map faster, understand the pros and cons, the
purpose and risks.


Anyway John, I fully agree your post is a nice starting point for this kind
of guide with an "approved" and proposed workflow for simple tasks. Thank
you Nick for safekeeping the idea.


althio


On Mar 7, 2015 8:43 AM, "Ray Kiddy" <ray at ganymede.org> wrote:

>
> John -
>
> Wow. That was actually an amazing help.
>
> I am not sure how adding a plugin can be made intuitive for someone
> doing it the first time without this level of detail.
>
> I also think part of my problem is going from slippy maps, like what we
> have been using on the web for years, and the iPhone and so on, to
> JOSM. The navigation is ... different. I guess control-arrow makes
> sense for moving in the map, but I seem to keep looking for a "grab"
> tool of some kind. My hands know slippy maps.
>
> And your "hit-update-but-dont" workflow is brilliant, but the fact that
> it has to be done that way, or is easier done that way.... Well, it
> suggests something is off, but I do not know what. We will see.
>
> I think that, at this point, I can go to the JOSM resources and get
> where I need to go.
>
> It is certainly daunting at first but, OMG, for buildings, JOSM is
> fantastic.
>
> Well, onward and upward.
>
> - ray
>
>
> On Fri, 6 Mar 2015 18:30:59 -0500
> john whelan <jwhelan0112 at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > Right the basic idiot guide.
> >
> > First write down your OSM userid and password.
> >
> > For task 917 we only care about highways, settlements and buildings.
> > Buildings if only because if there is one in isolation sometimes we
> > like to map it rather than call it a landuse=residential.
> >
> > Start JOSM up, in the edit menu you'll find preferences down the
> > bottom.
> >
> > We need to allow HOT to remotely control JOSM to feed it the bit to
> > map. So look for the remote control, usually second button up on the
> > left. Click enable remote control, ignore the rest.
> >
> > Now we need to add a plugin, fourth tile down is the plugin button.
> > Download the list.  Look for buildings_tool they're in alphabetical
> > order, click it and ignore the rest.
> >
> > go to http://tasks.hotosm.org/project/917
> >
> > Read the instructions.
> >
> > Click on a tile, click on start mapping, select edit with JOSM.
> >
> > Switch back to JOSM and you'll find its pulled in the existing OSM
> > map for the tile.
> >
> > We want to look at the imagery so look across the top, File, Edit etc
> > until you reach Imagery, for this one we will be using Bing so select
> > Bing.
> >
> > Now we need to trace over the image.  We'll use two buttons directly
> > under file, the top one is select, the second one is draw nodes.
> > Hover the mouse over them to display the tags.
> >
> > Zoom in to the image, generally speaking I zoom so that roughly 90
> > meters shows on the scale.  Personally I start at the top right
> > corner and use <Crtl><down arrow> to scan the image.
> >
> > The following is not the official way to do things but its fast.  Draw
> > round each settlement but don't tag it.  If you're lucky enough to
> > find a road joining settlements draw the highway in again don't tag
> > it.  As you go draw round each settlement you see on the road.  Stick
> > to one type of highway omit the others for the moment.
> >
> > The upload button is the fourth button from the left near Tools.
> >
> > When you upload JOSM will give you a warning, cancel the upload.  On
> > the right  hand side normally at the bottom you'll see a Validation
> > Results box, click on the + by the warning.  You'll see untagged
> > ways.  Highlight the untagged ways and select them.
> >
> > In tags Add landuse=residential to them all.
> >
> > Click the upload button once more, again you'll get a warning this
> > time saying landuse residential has unclosed ways, select these as a
> > group.
> >
> > In tags Edit and change the tag to highway=unclassified.
> >
> > Now upload.  You may need your OSM userid and password at this point.
> >
> > You'll notice that JOSM already has the source of the image filled in
> > and the HOT tile etc.
> >
> > Now go back and look for highway=tracks.  Again don't tag until JOSM
> > warns you on uploading then tag them all at once.
> >
> > For rectangle buildings press b for the building plug-in, now find the
> > longest side and mouse click one corner, follow the edge to the next
> > corner then click again, now drag the mouse to the other side. Click
> > once more and the building is done and correctly tagged for HOT.
> >
> > There is a lot more to JOSM but this guide's objective is to get you
> > going productively quickly.
> >
> > Cheerio John
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > On 6 March 2015 at 15:07, Ray Kiddy <ray at ganymede.org> wrote:
> >
> > > On Tue, 3 Mar 2015 15:12:21 -0500
> > > john whelan <jwhelan0112 at gmail.com> wrote:
> > >
> > > > Just for the heck of it I ran JOSM validation on a tile I was
> > > > mapping before touching it.  It turned up duplicate buildings,
> > > > crossed buildings, lots of highways separated by a few inches etc.
> > > >
> > > > Do we need an idiot guide?  A sort of this is how to provide the
> > > > maximum benefit for the least effort.
> > >
> > > Speaking as an idiot, I would say that the answer to this is yes.
> > >
> > > Perhaps you think I jest....
> > >
> > > > Mine would probably run along the lines of for Africa the
> > > > convention is only the following values of highways are used for
> > > > minor highways: path, track, unclassified, use highway=road if
> > > > you are uncertain. Someone will probably have tagged the
> > > > secondary and primary highways.
> > > > <http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:highway%3Dsecondary> If
> > > > possible use JOSM especially for buildings.  Please map buildings
> > > > as building=yes do not assume it is a house.
> > >
> > > As a 2-3 times per week mapper (who wishes I could do more), it can
> > > get frustrating. Lots of projects point to the Africa roads page
> > > but that page is hard to interpret for any particular context.
> > > There is a lot of information.
> > >
> > > And I hate to say it but I use ID and it drives me nuts. This may be
> > > from browser/js/platform issues. I am using Firefox 36.0 on Ubuntu
> > > 14.04 LTS. But I have looked at JOSM and it is somewhat bewildering
> > > and I have no idea how long it would take to get over the first
> > > humps of the learning curve. For now, my annoyances with ID are
> > > tolerable.
> > >
> > > If one was able to look at a task and see what tags where being used
> > > and how often within just that task, this might help the "African
> > > roads" situation.
> > >
> > > > People use maps to get from one place to another, if the highways
> > > > are joined up then routing software such as comes as part of
> > > > OSMAND can be used.   Look for highways around settlements that
> > > > connect to other settlements.
> > > >
> > > > <Crtl><arrow> in JOSM will navigate vertically or horizontally
> > > > making scanning easier.
> > >
> > > I should see if there is a cheat sheet for JOSM. It would be nice to
> > > know what control-shift-elbox-J does and all that. Of course, these
> > > may be platform specific (eg Windows keys vs Linux keys vs MacOS X
> > > keys).
> > >
> > > > I assume that most of these errors have crept in because JOSM
> > > > validation was not used.  I suspect that the immediate feedback
> > > > from JOSM might assist our less skilled mappers to improve their
> > > > skills.
> > > >
> > > > Cheerio John
> > >
> > > There needs to be validation on input and obviously both ID and
> > > JOSM do some, but can validation be done on the server? This would
> > > be better, especially if the results can be communicated to users.
> > > A HOT task could have a "Validations" tab. I, for one, would like
> > > to see the things that have been already fixed in data in that
> > > task. It would let me know when there are things not to do. If I am
> > > going to make a mistake within a task's maps, it is at least a bit
> > > likely that others will make or have made similar mistakes in the
> > > same context.
> > >
> > > Again, seeing the phrase "JOSM might assist our less skilled
> > > mappers", I have to wonder what you are thinking about here. Any
> > > sentence with both "JOSM" and "less skilled mappers" in it is going
> > > to lead to bad things. JOSM might be easier than it is, but I am
> > > not even very sure of that. Sometimes complex tasks require complex
> > > tools. One just hopes that there are options between the
> > > "very-simple-but-also-brain-dead" tool and the
> > > "amazingly-powerful-but-shockingly-unintuitive" tool. I am not
> > > saying that this is what JSOM and ID are, but hopefully you see my
> > > point.
> > >
> > > So, grump back at ya. :-)
> > >
> > > cheers - ray
> > >
> > > _______________________________________________
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> > > https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/hot
> > >
>
>
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