[HOT] Gentle grump

john whelan jwhelan0112 at gmail.com
Sun Mar 8 23:05:49 UTC 2015


I would much prefer to see an officially approved method.  People can give
more thought to it but the basic idea of a workflow for simple tasks using
JOSM I think is good.  JOSM is easier than some people it credit for but
more to the point we get less area=yes instead of buildings=yes, highways
that almost meet, and duplicate buildings and anything that helps data
quality get my vote.

Cheerio John

On 8 March 2015 at 18:51, althio <althio.forum at gmail.com> wrote:

> John, Ray,
>
> I think the quick start guide is a very neat idea. I would need to try the
> workflow and a few variations for myself.
>
> For the time being I only have reservations about the trick "
> upload-and-cancel". It would be IMO simpler and better to guide people to
> use consciously validation instead of faking an upload. (Validation window
> and/or Shift+V)
>
> I would say this particular aspect of the workflow is not intended for
> beginners (and idiots) because it is error-prone. (What if I am still
> trying to figure out what needs to be mapped? I am a beginner and do not
> know or understand the differences between projects and their
> instructions... What if I upload bad data? I am an idiot...)
>
> I think you must learn to walk before you can run. This kind of tricks is
> for people who want to map faster, understand the pros and cons, the
> purpose and risks.
>
>
> Anyway John, I fully agree your post is a nice starting point for this
> kind of guide with an "approved" and proposed workflow for simple tasks.
> Thank you Nick for safekeeping the idea.
>
>
> althio
>
>
> On Mar 7, 2015 8:43 AM, "Ray Kiddy" <ray at ganymede.org> wrote:
>
>>
>> John -
>>
>> Wow. That was actually an amazing help.
>>
>> I am not sure how adding a plugin can be made intuitive for someone
>> doing it the first time without this level of detail.
>>
>> I also think part of my problem is going from slippy maps, like what we
>> have been using on the web for years, and the iPhone and so on, to
>> JOSM. The navigation is ... different. I guess control-arrow makes
>> sense for moving in the map, but I seem to keep looking for a "grab"
>> tool of some kind. My hands know slippy maps.
>>
>> And your "hit-update-but-dont" workflow is brilliant, but the fact that
>> it has to be done that way, or is easier done that way.... Well, it
>> suggests something is off, but I do not know what. We will see.
>>
>> I think that, at this point, I can go to the JOSM resources and get
>> where I need to go.
>>
>> It is certainly daunting at first but, OMG, for buildings, JOSM is
>> fantastic.
>>
>> Well, onward and upward.
>>
>> - ray
>>
>>
>> On Fri, 6 Mar 2015 18:30:59 -0500
>> john whelan <jwhelan0112 at gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> > Right the basic idiot guide.
>> >
>> > First write down your OSM userid and password.
>> >
>> > For task 917 we only care about highways, settlements and buildings.
>> > Buildings if only because if there is one in isolation sometimes we
>> > like to map it rather than call it a landuse=residential.
>> >
>> > Start JOSM up, in the edit menu you'll find preferences down the
>> > bottom.
>> >
>> > We need to allow HOT to remotely control JOSM to feed it the bit to
>> > map. So look for the remote control, usually second button up on the
>> > left. Click enable remote control, ignore the rest.
>> >
>> > Now we need to add a plugin, fourth tile down is the plugin button.
>> > Download the list.  Look for buildings_tool they're in alphabetical
>> > order, click it and ignore the rest.
>> >
>> > go to http://tasks.hotosm.org/project/917
>> >
>> > Read the instructions.
>> >
>> > Click on a tile, click on start mapping, select edit with JOSM.
>> >
>> > Switch back to JOSM and you'll find its pulled in the existing OSM
>> > map for the tile.
>> >
>> > We want to look at the imagery so look across the top, File, Edit etc
>> > until you reach Imagery, for this one we will be using Bing so select
>> > Bing.
>> >
>> > Now we need to trace over the image.  We'll use two buttons directly
>> > under file, the top one is select, the second one is draw nodes.
>> > Hover the mouse over them to display the tags.
>> >
>> > Zoom in to the image, generally speaking I zoom so that roughly 90
>> > meters shows on the scale.  Personally I start at the top right
>> > corner and use <Crtl><down arrow> to scan the image.
>> >
>> > The following is not the official way to do things but its fast.  Draw
>> > round each settlement but don't tag it.  If you're lucky enough to
>> > find a road joining settlements draw the highway in again don't tag
>> > it.  As you go draw round each settlement you see on the road.  Stick
>> > to one type of highway omit the others for the moment.
>> >
>> > The upload button is the fourth button from the left near Tools.
>> >
>> > When you upload JOSM will give you a warning, cancel the upload.  On
>> > the right  hand side normally at the bottom you'll see a Validation
>> > Results box, click on the + by the warning.  You'll see untagged
>> > ways.  Highlight the untagged ways and select them.
>> >
>> > In tags Add landuse=residential to them all.
>> >
>> > Click the upload button once more, again you'll get a warning this
>> > time saying landuse residential has unclosed ways, select these as a
>> > group.
>> >
>> > In tags Edit and change the tag to highway=unclassified.
>> >
>> > Now upload.  You may need your OSM userid and password at this point.
>> >
>> > You'll notice that JOSM already has the source of the image filled in
>> > and the HOT tile etc.
>> >
>> > Now go back and look for highway=tracks.  Again don't tag until JOSM
>> > warns you on uploading then tag them all at once.
>> >
>> > For rectangle buildings press b for the building plug-in, now find the
>> > longest side and mouse click one corner, follow the edge to the next
>> > corner then click again, now drag the mouse to the other side. Click
>> > once more and the building is done and correctly tagged for HOT.
>> >
>> > There is a lot more to JOSM but this guide's objective is to get you
>> > going productively quickly.
>> >
>> > Cheerio John
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > On 6 March 2015 at 15:07, Ray Kiddy <ray at ganymede.org> wrote:
>> >
>> > > On Tue, 3 Mar 2015 15:12:21 -0500
>> > > john whelan <jwhelan0112 at gmail.com> wrote:
>> > >
>> > > > Just for the heck of it I ran JOSM validation on a tile I was
>> > > > mapping before touching it.  It turned up duplicate buildings,
>> > > > crossed buildings, lots of highways separated by a few inches etc.
>> > > >
>> > > > Do we need an idiot guide?  A sort of this is how to provide the
>> > > > maximum benefit for the least effort.
>> > >
>> > > Speaking as an idiot, I would say that the answer to this is yes.
>> > >
>> > > Perhaps you think I jest....
>> > >
>> > > > Mine would probably run along the lines of for Africa the
>> > > > convention is only the following values of highways are used for
>> > > > minor highways: path, track, unclassified, use highway=road if
>> > > > you are uncertain. Someone will probably have tagged the
>> > > > secondary and primary highways.
>> > > > <http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:highway%3Dsecondary> If
>> > > > possible use JOSM especially for buildings.  Please map buildings
>> > > > as building=yes do not assume it is a house.
>> > >
>> > > As a 2-3 times per week mapper (who wishes I could do more), it can
>> > > get frustrating. Lots of projects point to the Africa roads page
>> > > but that page is hard to interpret for any particular context.
>> > > There is a lot of information.
>> > >
>> > > And I hate to say it but I use ID and it drives me nuts. This may be
>> > > from browser/js/platform issues. I am using Firefox 36.0 on Ubuntu
>> > > 14.04 LTS. But I have looked at JOSM and it is somewhat bewildering
>> > > and I have no idea how long it would take to get over the first
>> > > humps of the learning curve. For now, my annoyances with ID are
>> > > tolerable.
>> > >
>> > > If one was able to look at a task and see what tags where being used
>> > > and how often within just that task, this might help the "African
>> > > roads" situation.
>> > >
>> > > > People use maps to get from one place to another, if the highways
>> > > > are joined up then routing software such as comes as part of
>> > > > OSMAND can be used.   Look for highways around settlements that
>> > > > connect to other settlements.
>> > > >
>> > > > <Crtl><arrow> in JOSM will navigate vertically or horizontally
>> > > > making scanning easier.
>> > >
>> > > I should see if there is a cheat sheet for JOSM. It would be nice to
>> > > know what control-shift-elbox-J does and all that. Of course, these
>> > > may be platform specific (eg Windows keys vs Linux keys vs MacOS X
>> > > keys).
>> > >
>> > > > I assume that most of these errors have crept in because JOSM
>> > > > validation was not used.  I suspect that the immediate feedback
>> > > > from JOSM might assist our less skilled mappers to improve their
>> > > > skills.
>> > > >
>> > > > Cheerio John
>> > >
>> > > There needs to be validation on input and obviously both ID and
>> > > JOSM do some, but can validation be done on the server? This would
>> > > be better, especially if the results can be communicated to users.
>> > > A HOT task could have a "Validations" tab. I, for one, would like
>> > > to see the things that have been already fixed in data in that
>> > > task. It would let me know when there are things not to do. If I am
>> > > going to make a mistake within a task's maps, it is at least a bit
>> > > likely that others will make or have made similar mistakes in the
>> > > same context.
>> > >
>> > > Again, seeing the phrase "JOSM might assist our less skilled
>> > > mappers", I have to wonder what you are thinking about here. Any
>> > > sentence with both "JOSM" and "less skilled mappers" in it is going
>> > > to lead to bad things. JOSM might be easier than it is, but I am
>> > > not even very sure of that. Sometimes complex tasks require complex
>> > > tools. One just hopes that there are options between the
>> > > "very-simple-but-also-brain-dead" tool and the
>> > > "amazingly-powerful-but-shockingly-unintuitive" tool. I am not
>> > > saying that this is what JSOM and ID are, but hopefully you see my
>> > > point.
>> > >
>> > > So, grump back at ya. :-)
>> > >
>> > > cheers - ray
>> > >
>> > > _______________________________________________
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>> > >
>>
>>
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