[HOT] Gentle grump

Hazel hlhj2 at srcf.net
Mon Mar 9 08:56:19 UTC 2015


Hello, all,

I think this is a really good point. Anything that helps data quality 
gets my vote, too.

Why not make the interface deliberately flexible and run controlled 
trials, as described here?
https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/test-learn-adapt-developing-public-policy-with-randomised-controlled-trials

Accuracy, speed, and volunteer retention are quantifiable. Are there any 
other characteristics people want?

All the best,
Hazel

On 2015-03-08 23:05, john whelan wrote:
> I would much prefer to see an officially approved method.  People can 
> give
> more thought to it but the basic idea of a workflow for simple tasks 
> using
> JOSM I think is good.  JOSM is easier than some people it credit for 
> but
> more to the point we get less area=yes instead of buildings=yes, 
> highways
> that almost meet, and duplicate buildings and anything that helps data
> quality get my vote.
> 
> Cheerio John
> 
> On 8 March 2015 at 18:51, althio <althio.forum at gmail.com> wrote:
> 
>> John, Ray,
>> 
>> I think the quick start guide is a very neat idea. I would need to try 
>> the
>> workflow and a few variations for myself.
>> 
>> For the time being I only have reservations about the trick "
>> upload-and-cancel". It would be IMO simpler and better to guide people 
>> to
>> use consciously validation instead of faking an upload. (Validation 
>> window
>> and/or Shift+V)
>> 
>> I would say this particular aspect of the workflow is not intended for
>> beginners (and idiots) because it is error-prone. (What if I am still
>> trying to figure out what needs to be mapped? I am a beginner and do 
>> not
>> know or understand the differences between projects and their
>> instructions... What if I upload bad data? I am an idiot...)
>> 
>> I think you must learn to walk before you can run. This kind of tricks 
>> is
>> for people who want to map faster, understand the pros and cons, the
>> purpose and risks.
>> 
>> 
>> Anyway John, I fully agree your post is a nice starting point for this
>> kind of guide with an "approved" and proposed workflow for simple 
>> tasks.
>> Thank you Nick for safekeeping the idea.
>> 
>> 
>> althio
>> 
>> 
>> On Mar 7, 2015 8:43 AM, "Ray Kiddy" <ray at ganymede.org> wrote:
>> 
>>> 
>>> John -
>>> 
>>> Wow. That was actually an amazing help.
>>> 
>>> I am not sure how adding a plugin can be made intuitive for someone
>>> doing it the first time without this level of detail.
>>> 
>>> I also think part of my problem is going from slippy maps, like what 
>>> we
>>> have been using on the web for years, and the iPhone and so on, to
>>> JOSM. The navigation is ... different. I guess control-arrow makes
>>> sense for moving in the map, but I seem to keep looking for a "grab"
>>> tool of some kind. My hands know slippy maps.
>>> 
>>> And your "hit-update-but-dont" workflow is brilliant, but the fact 
>>> that
>>> it has to be done that way, or is easier done that way.... Well, it
>>> suggests something is off, but I do not know what. We will see.
>>> 
>>> I think that, at this point, I can go to the JOSM resources and get
>>> where I need to go.
>>> 
>>> It is certainly daunting at first but, OMG, for buildings, JOSM is
>>> fantastic.
>>> 
>>> Well, onward and upward.
>>> 
>>> - ray
>>> 
>>> 
>>> On Fri, 6 Mar 2015 18:30:59 -0500
>>> john whelan <jwhelan0112 at gmail.com> wrote:
>>> 
>>> > Right the basic idiot guide.
>>> >
>>> > First write down your OSM userid and password.
>>> >
>>> > For task 917 we only care about highways, settlements and buildings.
>>> > Buildings if only because if there is one in isolation sometimes we
>>> > like to map it rather than call it a landuse=residential.
>>> >
>>> > Start JOSM up, in the edit menu you'll find preferences down the
>>> > bottom.
>>> >
>>> > We need to allow HOT to remotely control JOSM to feed it the bit to
>>> > map. So look for the remote control, usually second button up on the
>>> > left. Click enable remote control, ignore the rest.
>>> >
>>> > Now we need to add a plugin, fourth tile down is the plugin button.
>>> > Download the list.  Look for buildings_tool they're in alphabetical
>>> > order, click it and ignore the rest.
>>> >
>>> > go to http://tasks.hotosm.org/project/917
>>> >
>>> > Read the instructions.
>>> >
>>> > Click on a tile, click on start mapping, select edit with JOSM.
>>> >
>>> > Switch back to JOSM and you'll find its pulled in the existing OSM
>>> > map for the tile.
>>> >
>>> > We want to look at the imagery so look across the top, File, Edit etc
>>> > until you reach Imagery, for this one we will be using Bing so select
>>> > Bing.
>>> >
>>> > Now we need to trace over the image.  We'll use two buttons directly
>>> > under file, the top one is select, the second one is draw nodes.
>>> > Hover the mouse over them to display the tags.
>>> >
>>> > Zoom in to the image, generally speaking I zoom so that roughly 90
>>> > meters shows on the scale.  Personally I start at the top right
>>> > corner and use <Crtl><down arrow> to scan the image.
>>> >
>>> > The following is not the official way to do things but its fast.  Draw
>>> > round each settlement but don't tag it.  If you're lucky enough to
>>> > find a road joining settlements draw the highway in again don't tag
>>> > it.  As you go draw round each settlement you see on the road.  Stick
>>> > to one type of highway omit the others for the moment.
>>> >
>>> > The upload button is the fourth button from the left near Tools.
>>> >
>>> > When you upload JOSM will give you a warning, cancel the upload.  On
>>> > the right  hand side normally at the bottom you'll see a Validation
>>> > Results box, click on the + by the warning.  You'll see untagged
>>> > ways.  Highlight the untagged ways and select them.
>>> >
>>> > In tags Add landuse=residential to them all.
>>> >
>>> > Click the upload button once more, again you'll get a warning this
>>> > time saying landuse residential has unclosed ways, select these as a
>>> > group.
>>> >
>>> > In tags Edit and change the tag to highway=unclassified.
>>> >
>>> > Now upload.  You may need your OSM userid and password at this point.
>>> >
>>> > You'll notice that JOSM already has the source of the image filled in
>>> > and the HOT tile etc.
>>> >
>>> > Now go back and look for highway=tracks.  Again don't tag until JOSM
>>> > warns you on uploading then tag them all at once.
>>> >
>>> > For rectangle buildings press b for the building plug-in, now find the
>>> > longest side and mouse click one corner, follow the edge to the next
>>> > corner then click again, now drag the mouse to the other side. Click
>>> > once more and the building is done and correctly tagged for HOT.
>>> >
>>> > There is a lot more to JOSM but this guide's objective is to get you
>>> > going productively quickly.
>>> >
>>> > Cheerio John
>>> >
>>> >
>>> >
>>> >
>>> >
>>> > On 6 March 2015 at 15:07, Ray Kiddy <ray at ganymede.org> wrote:
>>> >
>>> > > On Tue, 3 Mar 2015 15:12:21 -0500
>>> > > john whelan <jwhelan0112 at gmail.com> wrote:
>>> > >
>>> > > > Just for the heck of it I ran JOSM validation on a tile I was
>>> > > > mapping before touching it.  It turned up duplicate buildings,
>>> > > > crossed buildings, lots of highways separated by a few inches etc.
>>> > > >
>>> > > > Do we need an idiot guide?  A sort of this is how to provide the
>>> > > > maximum benefit for the least effort.
>>> > >
>>> > > Speaking as an idiot, I would say that the answer to this is yes.
>>> > >
>>> > > Perhaps you think I jest....
>>> > >
>>> > > > Mine would probably run along the lines of for Africa the
>>> > > > convention is only the following values of highways are used for
>>> > > > minor highways: path, track, unclassified, use highway=road if
>>> > > > you are uncertain. Someone will probably have tagged the
>>> > > > secondary and primary highways.
>>> > > > <http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:highway%3Dsecondary> If
>>> > > > possible use JOSM especially for buildings.  Please map buildings
>>> > > > as building=yes do not assume it is a house.
>>> > >
>>> > > As a 2-3 times per week mapper (who wishes I could do more), it can
>>> > > get frustrating. Lots of projects point to the Africa roads page
>>> > > but that page is hard to interpret for any particular context.
>>> > > There is a lot of information.
>>> > >
>>> > > And I hate to say it but I use ID and it drives me nuts. This may be
>>> > > from browser/js/platform issues. I am using Firefox 36.0 on Ubuntu
>>> > > 14.04 LTS. But I have looked at JOSM and it is somewhat bewildering
>>> > > and I have no idea how long it would take to get over the first
>>> > > humps of the learning curve. For now, my annoyances with ID are
>>> > > tolerable.
>>> > >
>>> > > If one was able to look at a task and see what tags where being used
>>> > > and how often within just that task, this might help the "African
>>> > > roads" situation.
>>> > >
>>> > > > People use maps to get from one place to another, if the highways
>>> > > > are joined up then routing software such as comes as part of
>>> > > > OSMAND can be used.   Look for highways around settlements that
>>> > > > connect to other settlements.
>>> > > >
>>> > > > <Crtl><arrow> in JOSM will navigate vertically or horizontally
>>> > > > making scanning easier.
>>> > >
>>> > > I should see if there is a cheat sheet for JOSM. It would be nice to
>>> > > know what control-shift-elbox-J does and all that. Of course, these
>>> > > may be platform specific (eg Windows keys vs Linux keys vs MacOS X
>>> > > keys).
>>> > >
>>> > > > I assume that most of these errors have crept in because JOSM
>>> > > > validation was not used.  I suspect that the immediate feedback
>>> > > > from JOSM might assist our less skilled mappers to improve their
>>> > > > skills.
>>> > > >
>>> > > > Cheerio John
>>> > >
>>> > > There needs to be validation on input and obviously both ID and
>>> > > JOSM do some, but can validation be done on the server? This would
>>> > > be better, especially if the results can be communicated to users.
>>> > > A HOT task could have a "Validations" tab. I, for one, would like
>>> > > to see the things that have been already fixed in data in that
>>> > > task. It would let me know when there are things not to do. If I am
>>> > > going to make a mistake within a task's maps, it is at least a bit
>>> > > likely that others will make or have made similar mistakes in the
>>> > > same context.
>>> > >
>>> > > Again, seeing the phrase "JOSM might assist our less skilled
>>> > > mappers", I have to wonder what you are thinking about here. Any
>>> > > sentence with both "JOSM" and "less skilled mappers" in it is going
>>> > > to lead to bad things. JOSM might be easier than it is, but I am
>>> > > not even very sure of that. Sometimes complex tasks require complex
>>> > > tools. One just hopes that there are options between the
>>> > > "very-simple-but-also-brain-dead" tool and the
>>> > > "amazingly-powerful-but-shockingly-unintuitive" tool. I am not
>>> > > saying that this is what JSOM and ID are, but hopefully you see my
>>> > > point.
>>> > >
>>> > > So, grump back at ya. :-)
>>> > >
>>> > > cheers - ray
>>> > >
>>> > > _______________________________________________
>>> > > HOT mailing list
>>> > > HOT at openstreetmap.org
>>> > > https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/hot
>>> > >
>>> 
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