[HOT] Name tag in non-latin script - hindrance for NGOs/aid agencies?

Fri Nov 29 18:20:31 UTC 2019

I think you raise some good points but I still feel the most important
thing is to safeguard the editing data by copying it to name:en whilst it
is still available.

Names are a problem in that an armchair mapper is unlikely to be of use.
Data quality is also an issue.

On the ground mappers are extremely useful.  In Mali there are a number of
armchair mappers who have been enriching the map but names are a problem.
Some village names have been copied over from imported schools but some of
these locations are highly suspect.

To separate out the issues we have the low common denominator problem.
What works on the widest range of devices for the widest range of people.

Pierre raised the idea of name:native.  I suspect if the English name was
available under name:en then the documentation and software changes
required to handle this should be minimal.

The other issue is more a religious one and that is what should be in the
default name field.

I can make suggestions but in the end it really needs a decision and I am
in agreement with Fredrick on this identifying who the local mappers are
can be problematic.

I suspect a considered opinion from the board might help the genetic case
which Fredrick is trying to resolve.

Cheerio John

On Fri, Nov 29, 2019, 12:21 PM Solaiman Shaikh, <
shaikh.solaiman715 at gmail.com> wrote:

> Hi
> This is Solaiman Shaikh from Dhaka Bangladesh. President, YouthMappers
> Dhaka College. I have been contributing on OSM since 2016 and also
> connected field level mapping about last 3 years. From my experience and
> point of view that it is not only the issue that NGOs are working in
> Bangladesh. There is several issues since I am working on OSM with our
> local community we all have been following a central format using English
> language in name=eng name
>
> In this thread  name localization problem is raised, very few people
> trying to break local community's format. Now, the question is why local
> community is following this format?
>
>    - people normally who are literate (can ability minimum reading and
>    writing skills) understand English
>    - There in scarcity of default Bangla keyboard devices (even in my
>    laptop has only eng key board, though it is bought from local market)
>    -  Students are not taught bangla typing from their institutions, they
>    can write smoothly on paper. That's why people like typing eng alphabet
>    while they are using devices instead bangla font. (yes our govt and local
>    communication goes throw bangla, because a limited skilled people can type
>    bangla smoothly)
>    - Most of the field level contributors don't get or have enough
>    opportunity to learn bangla typing. Even I don't get any opportunity from
>    our govt. or local initiative to learn bangla typing skill (recently govt
>    is trying to emphasize on this matter and takes some initiative from the
>    primary school level but that is not meant all people know typing bangla)
>    - People who are using map or technology or browse internet can
>    understand both bangla and eng.
>    - typing bangla font is critical and not enough source to learn bangla
>    typing, though by using smart phones people sometime try to be used to with
>    it
>    - NGOs and tourist also local people are using this platform all are
>    eligible to use it (because local people who are using map, 100% people can
>    use, which ensures universality) .
>
> These are the most common reason so far as I know from my side. That's why
> we the local community are following a name=eng name instead of bangla. Now
> you people can ask why you local community oppose to that very small group
> who are trying to convert into bangla they are doing a heavenly holy job?
> we are opposing because -
>
>    - they are using translate machine instead of self translating where
>    translating machine is not a trusted source
>    - most of the data  they are translating we found wrong meaning
>    - they are deleting eng name totally when translating local name
>    - wrong spelling
>    - putting no data they are making mess on field level data which is
>    discouraging to ground level mappers
>
> So some newbie contributors who are making mess on ground level data
> breaking local community format without informing others is harmful where
> we are trying to make a useful quality map. Yes they are emphasizing to
> make bangla rendering machine, it can be a solution. But the problem is, if
> name=bangla name is followed then as about 95% people have been
> contributing on OSM giving name=eng name they will face big problem because
> most of them dont know bangla typing or have no option to write bangla.
> (so, should we say learn bangla typing or buy a bangla supported device
> first then contribute on osm?)
>
> When people give name= eng name, you cant say they are making mistakes or
> they are guilty. In many changesets they have said to people who have given
> name = eng name they are guilty in the changesets comment in bangla. So, I
> have given Eng name instead of bangla how can you say like that words? you
> can add name:bn= bangla name but cant say like this. Because I am putting
> data voluntarily I am not getting paid for this.
>
> On the other hand look at their contribution, are they putting new data or
> editing an old advanced mapper's data? If they they translate purely and
> keep old data no one will not raise any issue. Now the question is
> ...Should I guard my data instead of contributing new data to ensure my
> previous ground level data as they cant make any mess?? From the very
> beginning of this month, SOTM Asia 2019 was arranged in Dhaka we all were
> in there where all osm related people came but that newbies group did not
> come. I dont know why?
>
> I have already seen their profile they are editing on other's work 95%
> time without knowing proper osm tags and meaning and use case. Even I have
> found that natural=water, water=pond, name=pond how can be a common noun
> used as a proper noun? they are writing that in bangla as i dont type
> bangla I have written i eng.
>
> On the other hand most aged people in Bangladesh are illiterate, people
> who are literate can understand eng and new generation who are literate
> they also understand eng. So first of all we have to think the use case of
> map data. Is it for the illiterate people who cant use or  understand map
> or technology?  On the other hand is osm data prepared by any illiterate
> people?
>
> Some newbie people are breaking data quality and use case rather
> contributing new objects or features. If this things continue then people
> may discourage to give ground level data rather they will start doing like
> that people because osm data working group may think they are working/
> editing on name so,  they are pro or something else. Do you know how hard
> is collecting ground level data in our country?
>
> I am sorry because my words may find you harsh but this is the thing why
> it seems edit fight. I could talk this in our community mailing list but
> did not say anything because as I have already told precious topic related
> to name localization issue it would make fighting situation there.
>
> Wish you have a great day. Thank you.
>
> Regards
>
> On Fri, Nov 29, 2019 at 10:21 AM Mikel Maron <mikel.maron at gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
>> There’s no reason to hide this about a dispute in Bangladesh when that’s
>> already in the open, and there’s definitely overlap between the two mailing
>> lists.
>>
>>
>> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/pipermail/talk-bd/2019-November/000151.html
>>
>>
>>
>> My position is that it’s hard to understand why you’d want to map in
>> English when the local names are otherwise. As far as I know this isn’t an
>> issue in other countries where international NGOs operate, who should have
>> the capacity to use name:en if needed. So yes count me confused by the
>> position of OSM Bangladesh.
>>
>> But I certainly don’t know the ins and outs of this particular situation,
>> the people and the history behind how things have been organized in
>> Bangladesh. What seems more important here than poking holes in arguments
>> on public mailing lists is an attempt at a healthy dialog between the
>> parties involved in the dispute.
>>
>> Mikel
>>
>> On Wednesday, November 27, 2019, 7:00 PM, Frederik Ramm <
>> frederik at remote.org> wrote:
>>
>> Dear HOT list,
>>
>> the DWG has been involved in a discussion being had by the community in
>> a country where the official language uses non-latin characters.
>>
>> I would like to keep this abstract hence I will not say which country it
>> is even though some of you will know; I don't think it matters. It is
>> not Japan but you can imagine Japan if you need an example.
>>
>> In the country, more than 98% of the population speak the official
>> language as their native language, though English is commonly taught at
>> school and used in higher education. Older people or people outside of
>> the university system will often not be able to write English fluently.
>>
>> Signs (road signs, signposts) seem to be exclusively in the official
>> language if less important, and in official language plus English where
>> more important. It is claimed that some signs in big cities are
>> English-only but I haven't yet seen one.
>>
>> There is a dominant group in the country that says: Let us use English
>> for our "name" tags, and put the official language in name:xx (where xx
>> is the language code). This is relatively unusual for OSM, but it seems
>> to be the current consensus in the community. Some of them also request
>> that changeset discussions should be had in English instead of the
>> official language. Just like in many other countries, OSM was first
>> adopted by people at or involved with universities and hence used to
>> English, so the decision came lightly.
>>
>> Parts of the discussion hinge on not all IT systems properly supporting
>> the special characters needed for the official language; but the main
>> argument brought up again and again by the proponents is that there are
>> many people from aid agencies and NGOs contributing data to OSM or using
>> data from OSM in that country, and the data was of lesser use (or even
>> useless) to them if name tags were in the official language. (This
>> reasoning is also used for the request to hold changeset discussions in
>> English.)
>>
>> We have been told by the pro-English-name group:
>>
>> > as the major user & contributors to the local repository are the aid
>> agencies like UN, MSF, Red Cross/Red Crescent eventually they are also
>> facing problem while using the data ... We have been reported a recent case
>> were WFP was unable to use the data due to this reason. ... Aid agencies
>> like UN, MSF, Red Crescent have run many projects to map large portions of
>> the country and given those data to OSM, which makes them big contributors
>> and users of the OSM data. But this data becomes useless if all `name` tags
>> are replaced with [local language] ... The Humanitarian OpenStreetMap Team
>> (HOT) made a map for disaster response that is available in OSM main site
>> as an additional layer, which also can't render [local language]. And that
>> makes it a challenge in times of disaster response.
>>
>> Of course, the pro-local-name group feels stymied by the request to use
>> English; they feel this is an sign that the map is not "their" map but
>> someone else's and that requesting English changeset discussions
>> practically excludes large parts of the population.
>>
>> This is an issue that ultimately the local community must solve for
>> itself. But it seems to be that there might be a danger of favouring
>> the comfort of international contributors and NGOs over that of the
>> local population - in a line of thought that goes "the map in our
>> country gains more if we can keep these NGOs interested by using
>> English, than if we attract the less-well-English speaking citizens of
>> our country".
>>
>> I hope that there might be people from the organisations mentioned (UN,
>> MSF, Red Cross/Red Crescent, WFP, HOT) on this list who can tell me if
>> their organisations have policies or a general approach towards issues
>> like this. Is this a thing, projects hinging on whether the locals are
>> willing to deal in English? Or is "we have to use English to favour our
>> international partners" a red herring?
>>
>> Bye
>> Frederik
>>
>> --
>> Frederik Ramm  ##  eMail frederik at remote.org  ##  N49°00'09" E008°23'33"
>>
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>
>
> --
>
> *Md. Solaiman Shaikh*
>
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