[Imports] Living streets (was Re: Bad imports)

Tue Jan 26 16:09:18 UTC 2016

On Tue, Jan 26, 2016 at 10:23 AM, Jo <winfixit at gmail.com> wrote:

> I would say that even though they quack almost exactly the same, they are
> still different kinds of ducks. The best way to proceed is to create a
> specific tag for them and you can even ask to have it rendered almost
> exactly the same as the official living streets.
>

I had exactly the same thought as you Jo but I'd suggest this train has
left the station. Jakko describes a quite common usage of living_street. I
had the exact same experience as he describes below when starting to map in
India. There, a residential street where pedestrians have right of way is
commonly mapped as a living street. Different from a pedestrian zone,
vehicular traffic is not restricted except for maybe (expected) speed
limits.

> Polyglot
>
> 2016-01-26 16:15 GMT+01:00 Jaakko Helleranta <jaakko at helleranta.com>:
>
>> Just a brief comment on using living_street in contexts where the road is
>> not legally defined as a living street.
>>
>> I was facing a similar situation first in Haiti 3-4 years ago (where I
>> lived and mapped extensively in close collaboration with local mappers for
>> three years) and then in Nicaragua where same has happened for over two
>> years now.
>>
>> I think that the situation is quite simple:
>> The characteristics of various roads are very clearly in line with the
>> characteristics that define a legal living street, namely where there is a
>> lot of non-vehicular activity both _on_ the road and on its both sides AND
>> where pedestrians have undeniable right of way over vehicles. In Haiti I
>> was saying, "If you'd drive these roads not giving way to pedestrians your
>> car would be stoned."
>>
>> Since I started to ponder about the appropriate tagging of these roads
>> I've learned that the living_street tag is used quite broadly / extensively
>> in various countries with similar settings as Haiti and Nicaragua (and
>> where there often is no such thing as a legally defined living street).
>>
>> In summary, I think it would be a bit ignorant or/and foolish for those
>> without understanding of the on-the-ground realities of these countries to
>> claim that living_street is an inappropriate tag. At least until there is a
>> "unofficial_living_street" tag to replace it. Regular residential roads
>> these are not.
>>
>> I have a pile of street view pictures from both Haiti and Nicaragua to
>> help understand the situation on the ground if someone wants to look into
>> this on a practical level. You can start by downloading all living streets
>> in Managua, Nicaragua to JOSM and looking at the photos available in
>> Mapillary for these roads.
>>
>> With best regards from Managua,
>> -Jaakko
>>
>> --
>> Sent from my mobile device.
>> On Jan 24, 2016 7:44 PM, "Mikel Maron" <mikel_maron at yahoo.com> wrote:
>>
>>> Hi
>>>
>>> Thanks for investigating the data issues Sander. As I did when you
>>> contacted me last week, I'll explain the issues here as I see them, and
>>> discuss some simple ways I'll see to getting them fixed.
>>>
>>> On the "Bad Imports" page, this new process is unnecessary. There is
>>> already a substantial process for managing imports and resolving data
>>> issues, documented in the wiki and managed by the DWG.
>>>
>>> On the data in Enugu, my role in the original import was to advise
>>> colleagues involved directly in the data collection and import, and then to
>>> make some repairs to the roads (that is why I appear as the first editor of
>>> many features). There are two issues.
>>>
>>> One is "living_street". My understanding is that they used
>>> "living_street" in cases of unpaved residential roads, because there is a
>>> great amount of activity directly on these roads, and "resembled" living
>>> streets in the EU. There is no legal definition of living street in
>>> Nigeria. At the time of the import, I didn't totally agree with the
>>> classification, but didn't think it that important. Given the question on
>>> classification now, I think it's best to improve this, and will do so, by
>>> changing classification to residential road.
>>>
>>> Second, there are a good number of tags on POI that should not have been
>>> included in a related import of Enugu (for example
>>> http://www.openstreetmap.org/node/2460130808/history). The simple
>>> solution here is to identify those tags, and remove them, and I will see to
>>> this as well.
>>>
>>> -Mikel
>>>
>>> * Mikel Maron * +14152835207 @mikel s:mikelmaron
>>>
>>>
>>> On Sunday, January 24, 2016 6:23 PM, Daniel O'Connor <
>>> daniel.oconnor at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Re Enugu, see
>>> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/pipermail/imports/2013-August/002112.html
>>> for some of the discussion around this data.
>>>
>>> Mikel Maron (http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/User:Mikel) is the chap
>>> with the main user account for the roads data.
>>>
>>> On Mon, Jan 25, 2016 at 3:04 AM, Sander Deryckere <sanderd17 at gmail.com>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>> Meanwhile I contacted some users and documented the contacts in the wiki.
>>>
>>> If anyone finds other harmful imports, or has an opinion on the
>>> mentioned imports, please add them to the wiki.
>>>
>>> Thanks,
>>> Sander
>>>
>>>
>>> 2016-01-24 15:53 GMT+01:00 Sander Deryckere <sanderd17 at gmail.com>:
>>>
>>> I recently discovered a number of bad imports, but found out it's hard
>>> to discuss those, and keep track of those discussions, as there's no
>>> central platform where that could happen.
>>>
>>> There are f.e. changeset discussions, but when the importer doesn't
>>> answer, you don't get notified anymore, and nobody else will keep an eye on
>>> it.
>>>
>>> So I started a wiki page to gather information about bad imports,
>>> together with an initial procedure to handle those (giving some times to
>>> allow discussion and cleanups).
>>>
>>> see https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Bad_imports
>>>
>>> I already documented some bad imports there, but not yet who I contacted
>>> (though I contacted two importers via changeset messages, and that will be
>>> hard to find back if they don't react).
>>>
>>> If any of you find bad imports, I should ask you to also add them to the
>>> list, and regularly keep an eye on the list. When that list gets used more
>>> often, we won't lose track of those discussions anymore.
>>>
>>> If you have any remarks on the procedure, feel free to raise concerns.
>>> But I like some hard dates as else people wonder whether it would be ok to
>>> revert it already or not. And I think the current terms are reasonable.
>>>
>>> Regards,
>>> Sander
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
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