[josm-dev] Filter Google from Imagery?

[Frederik Ramm]

Dirk,

On 01/28/11 19:02, Dirk Stöcker wrote:
> Most of the discussions are much too OSM focused. Although JOSM is a OSM
> editor it is no longer an OSM-only tool. Preventing usage of valid image
> sources with the strict enforcement you request is nothing which I like
> or would implement without force.

Well you don't have to implement it - I already did ;)

> I have nothing against additional warnings (also possible related to a
> time delay to enforce reading texts) for cases where we know they have
> been misused. But I'm strctly against encrippling the software.

Then let's set up a second build process, somewhere outside of 
openstreetmap.{de|org}, where someone who is interested in a non-OSM 
version of JOSM can build releases to his heart's content and distribute 
them. Releases that do not talk to the OSM server preferably, and 
releases that *if* they talk to the OSM server, clearly identify 
themselves. OSMF could then decide to block those releases from 
accessing the API at any time if they so desire.

In fact I would be very happy if someone from outside OSM - one of the 
much-talked-about non-OSM users of JOSM - would set up this build 
process. I'll happily help them prepare the patches that get rid of tile 
blacklisting.

> 1) It is not sure, that producers of images of the earth even have the
> right to prevent usage for creating data based on the map when they
> provide free access to the images. This point of view is producer
> centric and in now way establish law enforcement.

As Martin has correctly said, OSM has *always* had a policy of "if in 
doubt, don't use a source". And doubt there certainly is.

> 2) Actually Google already helped the OSM community a lot. That they
> don't provide us the possibility to use their data does not necessarily
> mean the don't want to do. Maybe they simply can't?

It is not for us to interpret a clear "No" from Google - we have asked 
them directly, multiple times - and say "maybe what they really meant 
was yes".

> 3) As already stated there are legitimate use cases.

There may be (but these are likely violating Google's terms and 
conditions which has been stated here already). But these are a fraction 
of the illegitimate use cases and we *have* to remain in proportion.

> 4) We state with each request who we are. If Google really wants to
> prevent usage of JOSM, they simply can block our User-Agent. We don't
> come silent and for a very long time now. You say that Google may say
> "You did know it could happen, but you did nothing". Well we can say
> they same: "You did know it did happen, you could simply prevent it, but
> you did not do".

That is the only one of your points that remotely makes sense. Still, 
just because someone's garden door is unlocked you may not assume that 
this means he's ok with your eating his apples!

> So please:
> 1) Warnings yes, enforcement no

We have users who have made it clear - some in this very thread - that 
they will ignore these warnings. It is us, here in OpenStreetMap, who 
will later have to clean up the mess. Warnings are not enough.

Let us pursue the two-tier way. There's the OSM JOSM for which 
OpenStreetMap will continue to offer resources and which will be hosted 
on OSM domains and which will by default talk to the OSM server and 
everything but it won't allow you to use Google tiles; and there's the 
non-OSM JOSM which someone else hosts on their server and which caters 
to every non-OSM user out there.

Bye
Frederik