[OSM-legal-talk] Advice for transiki

Wed Dec 8 14:18:00 GMT 2010

I found a reference to albatrans here,
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_stations_of_the_Paris_RER

just add this information to wikipedia.

see also here :
http://wikitravel.org/en/Paris#Get_around

just add all the information you can there and we will see what happens.
mike

On Wed, Dec 8, 2010 at 3:08 PM, Andrei Klochko
<transportsplan2 at gmail.com> wrote:
> Hi,
> what did you mean by "the agency"? What I said was not specific about one
> agency. I used my example in portugal only for illustration. And neither did
> I talk here about schedules: I let that part of the problem go, until I have
> 20000 dollars to ask that question properly to lawyers that could give me a
> definite answer for several countries in the world. No the problem is no
> more about schedules.
> My question was only, wether we can use:
> - the name of the company to identify it, and if possible, their web site's
> adress
> - the adress of its headquarters OR the city in which it has the most lines,
> to position it on a map,
> - and the total amount and average class of transport (urban, interurban,
> etc) of operated transport lines, to give a hint about the company's
> importance, and radius of operation. That's all!
> Maybe a concrete example would help: consider:
> - Albatrans, web site http://www.albatrans.net/
> - headquarters: 48 Cours Blaise Pascal 91004 EVRY cedex (not visible on
> their site, but on another site, http://www.optile.com/adherents/index.html
> ); and "barycentre of their lines" = around Arpajon, lat/lon=
> 48.590243,2.248542 , and radius of operation = 25 to 30 kilometers. These
> two (and only these two) last pieces of info were "extracted" from their
> transport map available on their site, I admit it.
> - exactly 10 lines, interurban to departmental class, as can be seen on
> their page: http://www.albatrans.net/  -> then hit "nos lignes" (not a
> separate web adress)
>
> I gave this example here, because this company happens to be precisely the
> type of company that would never answer to anyone: they are part of the few
> ones that are not on itransports.fr; I called them several times, over six
> months, without being able to pass the welcoming secretary, even to get any
> commercial representative, not speaking of the director, of course. As you
> may see, on their web site the don't even display the position of their
> headquarters, hiding it behind a post box, probably so as not to recieve too
> much visits from unhappy people. This is precisely the kind of company, I
> want to break: I would like to display at least something about them,
> without them being able to complain.
> So, what part of the previously mentionned data (name, adress of
> headquarters/barycentre of transport network, radius of operation, and
> amount and class of their lines), am I legally authorized to display on
> transiki, according to French law or British law, or any other law, without
> having to ask permission to do so?
> Thanks
> Andrei
> PS: was that more specific than my previous message?
> 2010/12/8 Mike Dupont <jamesmikedupont at googlemail.com>
>>
>> Hi,
>> I would suggest that the devil is in the details, please be specific.
>> my I suggest that you write a wikipeidia article about the agency  or
>> wikitravel page about the timeplan/schedule and I will review it.
>> mike
>>
>> On Wed, Dec 8, 2010 at 3:43 AM, Andrei Klochko
>> <transportsplan2 at gmail.com> wrote:
>> > Hello again,
>> > This time, no weird things. I thinked a little about the whole transit
>> > data
>> > stuff, and I had an idea: if we think of the very minimalistic set of
>> > things, that someone willing to go to a "lost" place needs to know to
>> > succeed in planning his trip (I especially think of very lost places,
>> > far in
>> > the countryside), then maybe, the "operating centre" (say, headquarters'
>> > adress), and at least the welcome page of the website, of "surrounding"
>> > transit agencies, would still be a good start for that. If, by clicking
>> > a
>> > place, any user could have access to this minimalistic set of data about
>> > surrounding transit agencies, then at least he would know where to
>> > search
>> > the remaining data he needs to plan his trip. I am thinking here of a
>> > trip I
>> > made to portugal last summer, and about my endless search for a transit
>> > agency that would cover a specific place, 30km west of Lisbon (West
>> > Birre
>> > and Murches, for those who know), and I found everything about what was
>> > just
>> > 8km east  or further of that point, but nothing closer, no matter how
>> > hard I
>> > searched for it. If only I had known the names of the transit agencies
>> > that
>> > operated on that specific place, or at least around there (but as much
>> > of
>> > them as possible, ideally all of them!) then when searching "their name"
>> > +
>> > if necessary the names of surrounding cities, on google, I might have
>> > found
>> > something. And then, if any data concerning these agencies were
>> > available on
>> > the internet (even by some local people that would have put these
>> > timetables
>> > on a local site, not belonging to the transit agency: this is not our
>> > problem!), I would have found the reamaining information I needed :
>> > plan,
>> > and timetable, without anybody violating any copyright or database
>> > right.
>> > The problem of transit agencies who do not have a web site is another
>> > concern, as for that it falls back to the issue of true transit data and
>> > the
>> > necessity of an authorization to reproduce it (if the data about their
>> > lines
>> > isn't available at all on the internet, then without the authorization
>> > you
>> > could link to nowhere, neither could you take pictures and extract
>> > anything
>> > from them to put it on the internet, without proper authorization; and
>> > unless the positions of the bus stops, acquired by means of a gps, are
>> > free
>> > to use (which, I guess, we still cannot decide for sure), then I think,
>> > based on what was said earlier, that we can do nothing about this
>> > problem
>> > yet.)
>> >
>> > So, I would like to know: is it possible, without asking any permission,
>> > to
>> > put at least one geographical point about a transit agency, on the osm
>> > (or
>> > transiki) map, weither it be the adress of its headquarters or the
>> > barycentre of their transport network, and, say, the number (amount) of
>> > their lines?The total amount of lines a company operates, and if
>> > possible,
>> > the average distance each line runs on, would be useful to know in order
>> > to
>> > decide, for example, wether you include a transit agency in a search
>> > related
>> > to one point on the map, or not. It would give a hint about its
>> > transport
>> > network's "radius" of operation, "how far it can reach", more or less.
>> > Also,
>> > you could simply classify transit agencies in different categories:
>> > urban,
>> > interurban, regional, national, if it happens that "average line length"
>> > is
>> > still too much data to be free of use.
>> >
>> > And also, is it always possible to link to a website's front page
>> > without
>> > asking permission to the site's owner?
>> >
>> > I'm asking here about minimalistic things, I mean, there must at least
>> > be
>> > something  you could systematicly say about all transit agencies, wether
>> > they agree with it or not, on transiki, and possibly, without any strong
>> > dependancy to the local country's law...and if the headquarters' adress
>> > is
>> > still not a free piece of data you can add without asking, then find
>> > another
>> > relevant set of coordinates. At least something!
>> >
>> > And what about quoting the name itself of the transit agency? Isn't it
>> > using
>> > a trademark on a third party website without authorization of the owner
>> > of
>> > the trademark? I would say no based on the fact that google seems to
>> > have
>> > the authorization to display almost anything about a company when you
>> > search
>> > for it - on google, but still...
>> >
>> > Thank you in advance for your help, and sorry if I insist like that on
>> > the
>> > "not asking the authorization" thing: I only believe that it could make
>> > the
>> > gathering of at least some data...much much faster, and the coverage of
>> > the
>> > transiki map, at least in its poorest informative power, could be really
>> > great much more quickly, if we can achieve it legally. And besides, it
>> > would
>> > need much less effort, than if we always had to negociate with every
>> > single
>> > transit agency, to get any single piece of their data, especially if
>> > they
>> > never answer to anything about these type of questions, for any reason
>> > they
>> > may have...
>> > Good night
>> > Andrei
>> >
>> > _______________________________________________
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>> > legal-talk at openstreetmap.org
>> > http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/legal-talk
>> >
>> >
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> James Michael DuPont
>> Member of Free Libre Open Source Software Kosova and Albania
>> flossk.org flossal.org
>>
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-- 
James Michael DuPont
Member of Free Libre Open Source Software Kosova and Albania
flossk.org flossal.org