[OSM-legal-talk] Advice for transiki

Wed Dec 8 14:40:42 GMT 2010

Do I have the right to add this info like that? I know that wikipedia is
more like a "journalistic" thing, so you are more free to put whatever you
want, but still, I do not know precisely any applicable law in here!
And besides, you know, I think albatrans would hardly notice any changes in
a particular wikipedia, or wikitravel article...they may only notice it one
day, maybe only two years later...and probably they would never notice
anything. I would have liked someone that would know applicable law to tell
me if I legally can or not!
Andrei

2010/12/8 Mike Dupont <jamesmikedupont at googlemail.com>

> I found a reference to albatrans here,
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_stations_of_the_Paris_RER
>
> just add this information to wikipedia.
>
> see also here :
> http://wikitravel.org/en/Paris#Get_around
>
> just add all the information you can there and we will see what happens.
> mike
>
> On Wed, Dec 8, 2010 at 3:08 PM, Andrei Klochko
> <transportsplan2 at gmail.com> wrote:
> > Hi,
> > what did you mean by "the agency"? What I said was not specific about one
> > agency. I used my example in portugal only for illustration. And neither
> did
> > I talk here about schedules: I let that part of the problem go, until I
> have
> > 20000 dollars to ask that question properly to lawyers that could give me
> a
> > definite answer for several countries in the world. No the problem is no
> > more about schedules.
> > My question was only, wether we can use:
> > - the name of the company to identify it, and if possible, their web
> site's
> > adress
> > - the adress of its headquarters OR the city in which it has the most
> lines,
> > to position it on a map,
> > - and the total amount and average class of transport (urban, interurban,
> > etc) of operated transport lines, to give a hint about the company's
> > importance, and radius of operation. That's all!
> > Maybe a concrete example would help: consider:
> > - Albatrans, web site http://www.albatrans.net/
> > - headquarters: 48 Cours Blaise Pascal 91004 EVRY cedex (not visible on
> > their site, but on another site,
> http://www.optile.com/adherents/index.html
> > ); and "barycentre of their lines" = around Arpajon, lat/lon=
> > 48.590243,2.248542 , and radius of operation = 25 to 30 kilometers. These
> > two (and only these two) last pieces of info were "extracted" from their
> > transport map available on their site, I admit it.
> > - exactly 10 lines, interurban to departmental class, as can be seen on
> > their page: http://www.albatrans.net/  -> then hit "nos lignes" (not a
> > separate web adress)
> >
> > I gave this example here, because this company happens to be precisely
> the
> > type of company that would never answer to anyone: they are part of the
> few
> > ones that are not on itransports.fr; I called them several times, over
> six
> > months, without being able to pass the welcoming secretary, even to get
> any
> > commercial representative, not speaking of the director, of course. As
> you
> > may see, on their web site the don't even display the position of their
> > headquarters, hiding it behind a post box, probably so as not to recieve
> too
> > much visits from unhappy people. This is precisely the kind of company, I
> > want to break: I would like to display at least something about them,
> > without them being able to complain.
> > So, what part of the previously mentionned data (name, adress of
> > headquarters/barycentre of transport network, radius of operation, and
> > amount and class of their lines), am I legally authorized to display on
> > transiki, according to French law or British law, or any other law,
> without
> > having to ask permission to do so?
> > Thanks
> > Andrei
> > PS: was that more specific than my previous message?
> > 2010/12/8 Mike Dupont <jamesmikedupont at googlemail.com>
> >>
> >> Hi,
> >> I would suggest that the devil is in the details, please be specific.
> >> my I suggest that you write a wikipeidia article about the agency  or
> >> wikitravel page about the timeplan/schedule and I will review it.
> >> mike
> >>
> >> On Wed, Dec 8, 2010 at 3:43 AM, Andrei Klochko
> >> <transportsplan2 at gmail.com> wrote:
> >> > Hello again,
> >> > This time, no weird things. I thinked a little about the whole transit
> >> > data
> >> > stuff, and I had an idea: if we think of the very minimalistic set of
> >> > things, that someone willing to go to a "lost" place needs to know to
> >> > succeed in planning his trip (I especially think of very lost places,
> >> > far in
> >> > the countryside), then maybe, the "operating centre" (say,
> headquarters'
> >> > adress), and at least the welcome page of the website, of
> "surrounding"
> >> > transit agencies, would still be a good start for that. If, by
> clicking
> >> > a
> >> > place, any user could have access to this minimalistic set of data
> about
> >> > surrounding transit agencies, then at least he would know where to
> >> > search
> >> > the remaining data he needs to plan his trip. I am thinking here of a
> >> > trip I
> >> > made to portugal last summer, and about my endless search for a
> transit
> >> > agency that would cover a specific place, 30km west of Lisbon (West
> >> > Birre
> >> > and Murches, for those who know), and I found everything about what
> was
> >> > just
> >> > 8km east  or further of that point, but nothing closer, no matter how
> >> > hard I
> >> > searched for it. If only I had known the names of the transit agencies
> >> > that
> >> > operated on that specific place, or at least around there (but as much
> >> > of
> >> > them as possible, ideally all of them!) then when searching "their
> name"
> >> > +
> >> > if necessary the names of surrounding cities, on google, I might have
> >> > found
> >> > something. And then, if any data concerning these agencies were
> >> > available on
> >> > the internet (even by some local people that would have put these
> >> > timetables
> >> > on a local site, not belonging to the transit agency: this is not our
> >> > problem!), I would have found the reamaining information I needed :
> >> > plan,
> >> > and timetable, without anybody violating any copyright or database
> >> > right.
> >> > The problem of transit agencies who do not have a web site is another
> >> > concern, as for that it falls back to the issue of true transit data
> and
> >> > the
> >> > necessity of an authorization to reproduce it (if the data about their
> >> > lines
> >> > isn't available at all on the internet, then without the authorization
> >> > you
> >> > could link to nowhere, neither could you take pictures and extract
> >> > anything
> >> > from them to put it on the internet, without proper authorization; and
> >> > unless the positions of the bus stops, acquired by means of a gps, are
> >> > free
> >> > to use (which, I guess, we still cannot decide for sure), then I
> think,
> >> > based on what was said earlier, that we can do nothing about this
> >> > problem
> >> > yet.)
> >> >
> >> > So, I would like to know: is it possible, without asking any
> permission,
> >> > to
> >> > put at least one geographical point about a transit agency, on the osm
> >> > (or
> >> > transiki) map, weither it be the adress of its headquarters or the
> >> > barycentre of their transport network, and, say, the number (amount)
> of
> >> > their lines?The total amount of lines a company operates, and if
> >> > possible,
> >> > the average distance each line runs on, would be useful to know in
> order
> >> > to
> >> > decide, for example, wether you include a transit agency in a search
> >> > related
> >> > to one point on the map, or not. It would give a hint about its
> >> > transport
> >> > network's "radius" of operation, "how far it can reach", more or less.
> >> > Also,
> >> > you could simply classify transit agencies in different categories:
> >> > urban,
> >> > interurban, regional, national, if it happens that "average line
> length"
> >> > is
> >> > still too much data to be free of use.
> >> >
> >> > And also, is it always possible to link to a website's front page
> >> > without
> >> > asking permission to the site's owner?
> >> >
> >> > I'm asking here about minimalistic things, I mean, there must at least
> >> > be
> >> > something  you could systematicly say about all transit agencies,
> wether
> >> > they agree with it or not, on transiki, and possibly, without any
> strong
> >> > dependancy to the local country's law...and if the headquarters'
> adress
> >> > is
> >> > still not a free piece of data you can add without asking, then find
> >> > another
> >> > relevant set of coordinates. At least something!
> >> >
> >> > And what about quoting the name itself of the transit agency? Isn't it
> >> > using
> >> > a trademark on a third party website without authorization of the
> owner
> >> > of
> >> > the trademark? I would say no based on the fact that google seems to
> >> > have
> >> > the authorization to display almost anything about a company when you
> >> > search
> >> > for it - on google, but still...
> >> >
> >> > Thank you in advance for your help, and sorry if I insist like that on
> >> > the
> >> > "not asking the authorization" thing: I only believe that it could
> make
> >> > the
> >> > gathering of at least some data...much much faster, and the coverage
> of
> >> > the
> >> > transiki map, at least in its poorest informative power, could be
> really
> >> > great much more quickly, if we can achieve it legally. And besides, it
> >> > would
> >> > need much less effort, than if we always had to negociate with every
> >> > single
> >> > transit agency, to get any single piece of their data, especially if
> >> > they
> >> > never answer to anything about these type of questions, for any reason
> >> > they
> >> > may have...
> >> > Good night
> >> > Andrei
> >> >
> >> > _______________________________________________
> >> > legal-talk mailing list
> >> > legal-talk at openstreetmap.org
> >> > http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/legal-talk
> >> >
> >> >
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> --
> >> James Michael DuPont
> >> Member of Free Libre Open Source Software Kosova and Albania
> >> flossk.org flossal.org
> >>
> >> _______________________________________________
> >> legal-talk mailing list
> >> legal-talk at openstreetmap.org
> >> http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/legal-talk
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > legal-talk mailing list
> > legal-talk at openstreetmap.org
> > http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/legal-talk
> >
> >
>
>
>
> --
> James Michael DuPont
> Member of Free Libre Open Source Software Kosova and Albania
> flossk.org flossal.org
>
> _______________________________________________
> legal-talk mailing list
> legal-talk at openstreetmap.org
> http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/legal-talk
>
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.openstreetmap.org/pipermail/legal-talk/attachments/20101208/b437f1b1/attachment-0001.html>