[OSM-legal-talk] Advice for transiki

Mike Dupont jamesmikedupont at googlemail.com
Wed Dec 8 17:22:00 GMT 2010


Point is, if your article is valid and good according to the rules of
the wikipedia, then you can expect their help in defending you.

Wikitravel contains some schedules like here :
http://wikitravel.org/en/Natuna_Islands
http://wikitravel.org/en/Ilawa
http://wikitravel.org/en/Nyborg
http://wikitravel.org/en/Rangkasbitung

There are also links to schedules :
http://wikitravel.org/en/Socotra
http://wikitravel.org/en/Yuzhno-Kurilsk

Now it is questionable if any site will want to hold all the schedules
in great detail for no reason, but you might be able to get away with
it.

lets looks, for paris, you have the metro lines:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paris_M%C3%A9tro
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_stations_of_the_Paris_M%C3%A9tro
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_railway_stations_in_Paris

I would say this is pretty comprehensive data, you can also start an
article list_of_transport_networks_in_paris and list them all, what is
the problem with that?

mike

On Wed, Dec 8, 2010 at 5:37 PM, Andrei Klochko
<transportsplan2 at gmail.com> wrote:
> This may work, but based on my experience about contacting these companies,
> I doubt they will answer. But maybe i'll try it anyway: they may answer
> after all. The problem is, by doing this I will always have parcelar
> information: if one company agrees, that would not mean that the next one
> would. I would have liked to have some general information, that would apply
> to every company. But what you said is still a way to attract the attention
> of closed up companies, and as such, is a good thing. Thank you!
> Andrei
>
> 2010/12/8 Mike Dupont <jamesmikedupont at googlemail.com>
>>
>> I dont think I can asnwer this question, my i suggest to write the
>> wikitravel or wikipeida articles and then to send them to the
>> companies to comment on. Or write to thel. first.
>> mike
>>
>> On Wed, Dec 8, 2010 at 4:38 PM, Andrei Klochko
>> <transportsplan2 at gmail.com> wrote:
>> > The problem is, many people, even lawyers, told me that "using
>> > timetables",
>> > or "using the gps to recreate transportation maps", or even "use a
>> > transportation map to extract the data about the transport lines, and
>> > nothing else", would be "without problem". And then, I got the answer of
>> > Francis Davey, who told me that at least in England, there wold be great
>> > chances that timetables would be considered "intellectual creations",
>> > and
>> > hence, without the need of a sui generis database right, which is
>> > actually
>> > probably not applicable here, these timetables - and probably, also the
>> > plans, and hence position of the stops, etc - won't be usable on any
>> > site
>> > without authorization of their owner. So the "apparently, there would be
>> > no
>> > problem" answer, was wrong. So, I cannot satisfy of a "there should not
>> > be
>> > any problem": Ok, in the US it may be demonstrated, but still, I would
>> > like
>> > to know which articles, cases, etc... And this is why I asked about
>> > such
>> > minimalistic things, as one geographical point, the name of the company,
>> > the
>> > number of lines. I thought, maybe on this, I could get a definite answer
>> > from a lawyer here.
>> > But ok, I knew what was told to me: I have to ask a lawyer directly to
>> > get
>> > all my definite answers. Then I will start an import/export company, or
>> > anything to gather 20000 dollars, and then ask a lawyer, with the
>> > assurance
>> > to have this definite answer, opposable to any company that would
>> > complain
>> > about what data I "stole" from them.
>> >
>> > And here, the point is not about putting some data about one single
>> > company,
>> > on wikipedia: it is about importing, using an automated web crawler like
>> > google does for its searches, tons and tons of data about tons and tons
>> > of
>> > companies,  while knowing that the data I am importing,  is absolutely
>> > certain to be free of use. Because, as always, transit companies would
>> > wake
>> > up only when the amount of overall collected data would make the
>> > financial
>> > compensations and penalties, huge, and I do not want that!
>> > Andrei
>> >
>> >
>> > 2010/12/8 Mike Dupont <jamesmikedupont at googlemail.com>
>> >>
>> >> In usa facts are not copyrightable. The facts about the transport are
>> >> allowed to be put into the wikipedia, if it is notable that is another
>> >> issue. Youc an also make a wikibook.org about the transportation in
>> >> france.  I dont see why it would be a problem.
>> >> mike
>> >>
>> >> On Wed, Dec 8, 2010 at 3:40 PM, Andrei Klochko
>> >> <transportsplan2 at gmail.com> wrote:
>> >> > Do I have the right to add this info like that? I know that wikipedia
>> >> > is
>> >> > more like a "journalistic" thing, so you are more free to put
>> >> > whatever
>> >> > you
>> >> > want, but still, I do not know precisely any applicable law in here!
>> >> > And besides, you know, I think albatrans would hardly notice any
>> >> > changes
>> >> > in
>> >> > a particular wikipedia, or wikitravel article...they may only notice
>> >> > it
>> >> > one
>> >> > day, maybe only two years later...and probably they would never
>> >> > notice
>> >> > anything. I would have liked someone that would know applicable law
>> >> > to
>> >> > tell
>> >> > me if I legally can or not!
>> >> > Andrei
>> >> >
>> >> > 2010/12/8 Mike Dupont <jamesmikedupont at googlemail.com>
>> >> >>
>> >> >> I found a reference to albatrans here,
>> >> >> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_stations_of_the_Paris_RER
>> >> >>
>> >> >> just add this information to wikipedia.
>> >> >>
>> >> >> see also here :
>> >> >> http://wikitravel.org/en/Paris#Get_around
>> >> >>
>> >> >> just add all the information you can there and we will see what
>> >> >> happens.
>> >> >> mike
>> >> >>
>> >> >> On Wed, Dec 8, 2010 at 3:08 PM, Andrei Klochko
>> >> >> <transportsplan2 at gmail.com> wrote:
>> >> >> > Hi,
>> >> >> > what did you mean by "the agency"? What I said was not specific
>> >> >> > about
>> >> >> > one
>> >> >> > agency. I used my example in portugal only for illustration. And
>> >> >> > neither
>> >> >> > did
>> >> >> > I talk here about schedules: I let that part of the problem go,
>> >> >> > until
>> >> >> > I
>> >> >> > have
>> >> >> > 20000 dollars to ask that question properly to lawyers that could
>> >> >> > give
>> >> >> > me a
>> >> >> > definite answer for several countries in the world. No the problem
>> >> >> > is
>> >> >> > no
>> >> >> > more about schedules.
>> >> >> > My question was only, wether we can use:
>> >> >> > - the name of the company to identify it, and if possible, their
>> >> >> > web
>> >> >> > site's
>> >> >> > adress
>> >> >> > - the adress of its headquarters OR the city in which it has the
>> >> >> > most
>> >> >> > lines,
>> >> >> > to position it on a map,
>> >> >> > - and the total amount and average class of transport (urban,
>> >> >> > interurban,
>> >> >> > etc) of operated transport lines, to give a hint about the
>> >> >> > company's
>> >> >> > importance, and radius of operation. That's all!
>> >> >> > Maybe a concrete example would help: consider:
>> >> >> > - Albatrans, web site http://www.albatrans.net/
>> >> >> > - headquarters: 48 Cours Blaise Pascal 91004 EVRY cedex (not
>> >> >> > visible
>> >> >> > on
>> >> >> > their site, but on another site,
>> >> >> > http://www.optile.com/adherents/index.html
>> >> >> > ); and "barycentre of their lines" = around Arpajon, lat/lon=
>> >> >> > 48.590243,2.248542 , and radius of operation = 25 to 30
>> >> >> > kilometers.
>> >> >> > These
>> >> >> > two (and only these two) last pieces of info were "extracted" from
>> >> >> > their
>> >> >> > transport map available on their site, I admit it.
>> >> >> > - exactly 10 lines, interurban to departmental class, as can be
>> >> >> > seen
>> >> >> > on
>> >> >> > their page: http://www.albatrans.net/  -> then hit "nos lignes"
>> >> >> > (not
>> >> >> > a
>> >> >> > separate web adress)
>> >> >> >
>> >> >> > I gave this example here, because this company happens to be
>> >> >> > precisely
>> >> >> > the
>> >> >> > type of company that would never answer to anyone: they are part
>> >> >> > of
>> >> >> > the
>> >> >> > few
>> >> >> > ones that are not on itransports.fr; I called them several times,
>> >> >> > over
>> >> >> > six
>> >> >> > months, without being able to pass the welcoming secretary, even
>> >> >> > to
>> >> >> > get
>> >> >> > any
>> >> >> > commercial representative, not speaking of the director, of
>> >> >> > course.
>> >> >> > As
>> >> >> > you
>> >> >> > may see, on their web site the don't even display the position of
>> >> >> > their
>> >> >> > headquarters, hiding it behind a post box, probably so as not to
>> >> >> > recieve
>> >> >> > too
>> >> >> > much visits from unhappy people. This is precisely the kind of
>> >> >> > company,
>> >> >> > I
>> >> >> > want to break: I would like to display at least something about
>> >> >> > them,
>> >> >> > without them being able to complain.
>> >> >> > So, what part of the previously mentionned data (name, adress of
>> >> >> > headquarters/barycentre of transport network, radius of operation,
>> >> >> > and
>> >> >> > amount and class of their lines), am I legally authorized to
>> >> >> > display
>> >> >> > on
>> >> >> > transiki, according to French law or British law, or any other
>> >> >> > law,
>> >> >> > without
>> >> >> > having to ask permission to do so?
>> >> >> > Thanks
>> >> >> > Andrei
>> >> >> > PS: was that more specific than my previous message?
>> >> >> > 2010/12/8 Mike Dupont <jamesmikedupont at googlemail.com>
>> >> >> >>
>> >> >> >> Hi,
>> >> >> >> I would suggest that the devil is in the details, please be
>> >> >> >> specific.
>> >> >> >> my I suggest that you write a wikipeidia article about the agency
>> >> >> >>  or
>> >> >> >> wikitravel page about the timeplan/schedule and I will review it.
>> >> >> >> mike
>> >> >> >>
>> >> >> >> On Wed, Dec 8, 2010 at 3:43 AM, Andrei Klochko
>> >> >> >> <transportsplan2 at gmail.com> wrote:
>> >> >> >> > Hello again,
>> >> >> >> > This time, no weird things. I thinked a little about the whole
>> >> >> >> > transit
>> >> >> >> > data
>> >> >> >> > stuff, and I had an idea: if we think of the very minimalistic
>> >> >> >> > set
>> >> >> >> > of
>> >> >> >> > things, that someone willing to go to a "lost" place needs to
>> >> >> >> > know
>> >> >> >> > to
>> >> >> >> > succeed in planning his trip (I especially think of very lost
>> >> >> >> > places,
>> >> >> >> > far in
>> >> >> >> > the countryside), then maybe, the "operating centre" (say,
>> >> >> >> > headquarters'
>> >> >> >> > adress), and at least the welcome page of the website, of
>> >> >> >> > "surrounding"
>> >> >> >> > transit agencies, would still be a good start for that. If, by
>> >> >> >> > clicking
>> >> >> >> > a
>> >> >> >> > place, any user could have access to this minimalistic set of
>> >> >> >> > data
>> >> >> >> > about
>> >> >> >> > surrounding transit agencies, then at least he would know where
>> >> >> >> > to
>> >> >> >> > search
>> >> >> >> > the remaining data he needs to plan his trip. I am thinking
>> >> >> >> > here
>> >> >> >> > of a
>> >> >> >> > trip I
>> >> >> >> > made to portugal last summer, and about my endless search for a
>> >> >> >> > transit
>> >> >> >> > agency that would cover a specific place, 30km west of Lisbon
>> >> >> >> > (West
>> >> >> >> > Birre
>> >> >> >> > and Murches, for those who know), and I found everything about
>> >> >> >> > what
>> >> >> >> > was
>> >> >> >> > just
>> >> >> >> > 8km east  or further of that point, but nothing closer, no
>> >> >> >> > matter
>> >> >> >> > how
>> >> >> >> > hard I
>> >> >> >> > searched for it. If only I had known the names of the transit
>> >> >> >> > agencies
>> >> >> >> > that
>> >> >> >> > operated on that specific place, or at least around there (but
>> >> >> >> > as
>> >> >> >> > much
>> >> >> >> > of
>> >> >> >> > them as possible, ideally all of them!) then when searching
>> >> >> >> > "their
>> >> >> >> > name"
>> >> >> >> > +
>> >> >> >> > if necessary the names of surrounding cities, on google, I
>> >> >> >> > might
>> >> >> >> > have
>> >> >> >> > found
>> >> >> >> > something. And then, if any data concerning these agencies were
>> >> >> >> > available on
>> >> >> >> > the internet (even by some local people that would have put
>> >> >> >> > these
>> >> >> >> > timetables
>> >> >> >> > on a local site, not belonging to the transit agency: this is
>> >> >> >> > not
>> >> >> >> > our
>> >> >> >> > problem!), I would have found the reamaining information I
>> >> >> >> > needed
>> >> >> >> > :
>> >> >> >> > plan,
>> >> >> >> > and timetable, without anybody violating any copyright or
>> >> >> >> > database
>> >> >> >> > right.
>> >> >> >> > The problem of transit agencies who do not have a web site is
>> >> >> >> > another
>> >> >> >> > concern, as for that it falls back to the issue of true transit
>> >> >> >> > data
>> >> >> >> > and
>> >> >> >> > the
>> >> >> >> > necessity of an authorization to reproduce it (if the data
>> >> >> >> > about
>> >> >> >> > their
>> >> >> >> > lines
>> >> >> >> > isn't available at all on the internet, then without the
>> >> >> >> > authorization
>> >> >> >> > you
>> >> >> >> > could link to nowhere, neither could you take pictures and
>> >> >> >> > extract
>> >> >> >> > anything
>> >> >> >> > from them to put it on the internet, without proper
>> >> >> >> > authorization;
>> >> >> >> > and
>> >> >> >> > unless the positions of the bus stops, acquired by means of a
>> >> >> >> > gps,
>> >> >> >> > are
>> >> >> >> > free
>> >> >> >> > to use (which, I guess, we still cannot decide for sure), then
>> >> >> >> > I
>> >> >> >> > think,
>> >> >> >> > based on what was said earlier, that we can do nothing about
>> >> >> >> > this
>> >> >> >> > problem
>> >> >> >> > yet.)
>> >> >> >> >
>> >> >> >> > So, I would like to know: is it possible, without asking any
>> >> >> >> > permission,
>> >> >> >> > to
>> >> >> >> > put at least one geographical point about a transit agency, on
>> >> >> >> > the
>> >> >> >> > osm
>> >> >> >> > (or
>> >> >> >> > transiki) map, weither it be the adress of its headquarters or
>> >> >> >> > the
>> >> >> >> > barycentre of their transport network, and, say, the number
>> >> >> >> > (amount)
>> >> >> >> > of
>> >> >> >> > their lines?The total amount of lines a company operates, and
>> >> >> >> > if
>> >> >> >> > possible,
>> >> >> >> > the average distance each line runs on, would be useful to know
>> >> >> >> > in
>> >> >> >> > order
>> >> >> >> > to
>> >> >> >> > decide, for example, wether you include a transit agency in a
>> >> >> >> > search
>> >> >> >> > related
>> >> >> >> > to one point on the map, or not. It would give a hint about its
>> >> >> >> > transport
>> >> >> >> > network's "radius" of operation, "how far it can reach", more
>> >> >> >> > or
>> >> >> >> > less.
>> >> >> >> > Also,
>> >> >> >> > you could simply classify transit agencies in different
>> >> >> >> > categories:
>> >> >> >> > urban,
>> >> >> >> > interurban, regional, national, if it happens that "average
>> >> >> >> > line
>> >> >> >> > length"
>> >> >> >> > is
>> >> >> >> > still too much data to be free of use.
>> >> >> >> >
>> >> >> >> > And also, is it always possible to link to a website's front
>> >> >> >> > page
>> >> >> >> > without
>> >> >> >> > asking permission to the site's owner?
>> >> >> >> >
>> >> >> >> > I'm asking here about minimalistic things, I mean, there must
>> >> >> >> > at
>> >> >> >> > least
>> >> >> >> > be
>> >> >> >> > something  you could systematicly say about all transit
>> >> >> >> > agencies,
>> >> >> >> > wether
>> >> >> >> > they agree with it or not, on transiki, and possibly, without
>> >> >> >> > any
>> >> >> >> > strong
>> >> >> >> > dependancy to the local country's law...and if the
>> >> >> >> > headquarters'
>> >> >> >> > adress
>> >> >> >> > is
>> >> >> >> > still not a free piece of data you can add without asking, then
>> >> >> >> > find
>> >> >> >> > another
>> >> >> >> > relevant set of coordinates. At least something!
>> >> >> >> >
>> >> >> >> > And what about quoting the name itself of the transit agency?
>> >> >> >> > Isn't
>> >> >> >> > it
>> >> >> >> > using
>> >> >> >> > a trademark on a third party website without authorization of
>> >> >> >> > the
>> >> >> >> > owner
>> >> >> >> > of
>> >> >> >> > the trademark? I would say no based on the fact that google
>> >> >> >> > seems
>> >> >> >> > to
>> >> >> >> > have
>> >> >> >> > the authorization to display almost anything about a company
>> >> >> >> > when
>> >> >> >> > you
>> >> >> >> > search
>> >> >> >> > for it - on google, but still...
>> >> >> >> >
>> >> >> >> > Thank you in advance for your help, and sorry if I insist like
>> >> >> >> > that
>> >> >> >> > on
>> >> >> >> > the
>> >> >> >> > "not asking the authorization" thing: I only believe that it
>> >> >> >> > could
>> >> >> >> > make
>> >> >> >> > the
>> >> >> >> > gathering of at least some data...much much faster, and the
>> >> >> >> > coverage
>> >> >> >> > of
>> >> >> >> > the
>> >> >> >> > transiki map, at least in its poorest informative power, could
>> >> >> >> > be
>> >> >> >> > really
>> >> >> >> > great much more quickly, if we can achieve it legally. And
>> >> >> >> > besides,
>> >> >> >> > it
>> >> >> >> > would
>> >> >> >> > need much less effort, than if we always had to negociate with
>> >> >> >> > every
>> >> >> >> > single
>> >> >> >> > transit agency, to get any single piece of their data,
>> >> >> >> > especially
>> >> >> >> > if
>> >> >> >> > they
>> >> >> >> > never answer to anything about these type of questions, for any
>> >> >> >> > reason
>> >> >> >> > they
>> >> >> >> > may have...
>> >> >> >> > Good night
>> >> >> >> > Andrei
>> >> >> >> >
>> >> >> >> > _______________________________________________
>> >> >> >> > legal-talk mailing list
>> >> >> >> > legal-talk at openstreetmap.org
>> >> >> >> > http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/legal-talk
>> >> >> >> >
>> >> >> >> >
>> >> >> >>
>> >> >> >>
>> >> >> >>
>> >> >> >> --
>> >> >> >> James Michael DuPont
>> >> >> >> Member of Free Libre Open Source Software Kosova and Albania
>> >> >> >> flossk.org flossal.org
>> >> >> >>
>> >> >> >> _______________________________________________
>> >> >> >> legal-talk mailing list
>> >> >> >> legal-talk at openstreetmap.org
>> >> >> >> http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/legal-talk
>> >> >> >
>> >> >> >
>> >> >> > _______________________________________________
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>> >> >> >
>> >> >> >
>> >> >>
>> >> >>
>> >> >>
>> >> >> --
>> >> >> James Michael DuPont
>> >> >> Member of Free Libre Open Source Software Kosova and Albania
>> >> >> flossk.org flossal.org
>> >> >>
>> >> >> _______________________________________________
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>> >> >
>> >> >
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>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> --
>> >> James Michael DuPont
>> >> Member of Free Libre Open Source Software Kosova and Albania
>> >> flossk.org flossal.org
>> >>
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>> >
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> James Michael DuPont
>> Member of Free Libre Open Source Software Kosova and Albania
>> flossk.org flossal.org
>>
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-- 
James Michael DuPont
Member of Free Libre Open Source Software Kosova and Albania
flossk.org flossal.org



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