[OSM-legal-talk] Advice for transiki

Andrei Klochko transportsplan2 at gmail.com
Wed Dec 8 16:37:10 GMT 2010


This may work, but based on my experience about contacting these companies,
I doubt they will answer. But maybe i'll try it anyway: they may answer
after all. The problem is, by doing this I will always have parcelar
information: if one company agrees, that would not mean that the next one
would. I would have liked to have some general information, that would apply
to every company. But what you said is still a way to attract the attention
of closed up companies, and as such, is a good thing. Thank you!
Andrei

2010/12/8 Mike Dupont <jamesmikedupont at googlemail.com>

> I dont think I can asnwer this question, my i suggest to write the
> wikitravel or wikipeida articles and then to send them to the
> companies to comment on. Or write to thel. first.
> mike
>
> On Wed, Dec 8, 2010 at 4:38 PM, Andrei Klochko
> <transportsplan2 at gmail.com> wrote:
> > The problem is, many people, even lawyers, told me that "using
> timetables",
> > or "using the gps to recreate transportation maps", or even "use a
> > transportation map to extract the data about the transport lines, and
> > nothing else", would be "without problem". And then, I got the answer of
> > Francis Davey, who told me that at least in England, there wold be great
> > chances that timetables would be considered "intellectual creations", and
> > hence, without the need of a sui generis database right, which is
> actually
> > probably not applicable here, these timetables - and probably, also the
> > plans, and hence position of the stops, etc - won't be usable on any site
> > without authorization of their owner. So the "apparently, there would be
> no
> > problem" answer, was wrong. So, I cannot satisfy of a "there should not
> be
> > any problem": Ok, in the US it may be demonstrated, but still, I would
> like
> > to know which articles, cases, etc... And this is why I asked about  such
> > minimalistic things, as one geographical point, the name of the company,
> the
> > number of lines. I thought, maybe on this, I could get a definite answer
> > from a lawyer here.
> > But ok, I knew what was told to me: I have to ask a lawyer directly to
> get
> > all my definite answers. Then I will start an import/export company, or
> > anything to gather 20000 dollars, and then ask a lawyer, with the
> assurance
> > to have this definite answer, opposable to any company that would
> complain
> > about what data I "stole" from them.
> >
> > And here, the point is not about putting some data about one single
> company,
> > on wikipedia: it is about importing, using an automated web crawler like
> > google does for its searches, tons and tons of data about tons and tons
> of
> > companies,  while knowing that the data I am importing,  is absolutely
> > certain to be free of use. Because, as always, transit companies would
> wake
> > up only when the amount of overall collected data would make the
> financial
> > compensations and penalties, huge, and I do not want that!
> > Andrei
> >
> >
> > 2010/12/8 Mike Dupont <jamesmikedupont at googlemail.com>
> >>
> >> In usa facts are not copyrightable. The facts about the transport are
> >> allowed to be put into the wikipedia, if it is notable that is another
> >> issue. Youc an also make a wikibook.org about the transportation in
> >> france.  I dont see why it would be a problem.
> >> mike
> >>
> >> On Wed, Dec 8, 2010 at 3:40 PM, Andrei Klochko
> >> <transportsplan2 at gmail.com> wrote:
> >> > Do I have the right to add this info like that? I know that wikipedia
> is
> >> > more like a "journalistic" thing, so you are more free to put whatever
> >> > you
> >> > want, but still, I do not know precisely any applicable law in here!
> >> > And besides, you know, I think albatrans would hardly notice any
> changes
> >> > in
> >> > a particular wikipedia, or wikitravel article...they may only notice
> it
> >> > one
> >> > day, maybe only two years later...and probably they would never notice
> >> > anything. I would have liked someone that would know applicable law to
> >> > tell
> >> > me if I legally can or not!
> >> > Andrei
> >> >
> >> > 2010/12/8 Mike Dupont <jamesmikedupont at googlemail.com>
> >> >>
> >> >> I found a reference to albatrans here,
> >> >> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_stations_of_the_Paris_RER
> >> >>
> >> >> just add this information to wikipedia.
> >> >>
> >> >> see also here :
> >> >> http://wikitravel.org/en/Paris#Get_around
> >> >>
> >> >> just add all the information you can there and we will see what
> >> >> happens.
> >> >> mike
> >> >>
> >> >> On Wed, Dec 8, 2010 at 3:08 PM, Andrei Klochko
> >> >> <transportsplan2 at gmail.com> wrote:
> >> >> > Hi,
> >> >> > what did you mean by "the agency"? What I said was not specific
> about
> >> >> > one
> >> >> > agency. I used my example in portugal only for illustration. And
> >> >> > neither
> >> >> > did
> >> >> > I talk here about schedules: I let that part of the problem go,
> until
> >> >> > I
> >> >> > have
> >> >> > 20000 dollars to ask that question properly to lawyers that could
> >> >> > give
> >> >> > me a
> >> >> > definite answer for several countries in the world. No the problem
> is
> >> >> > no
> >> >> > more about schedules.
> >> >> > My question was only, wether we can use:
> >> >> > - the name of the company to identify it, and if possible, their
> web
> >> >> > site's
> >> >> > adress
> >> >> > - the adress of its headquarters OR the city in which it has the
> most
> >> >> > lines,
> >> >> > to position it on a map,
> >> >> > - and the total amount and average class of transport (urban,
> >> >> > interurban,
> >> >> > etc) of operated transport lines, to give a hint about the
> company's
> >> >> > importance, and radius of operation. That's all!
> >> >> > Maybe a concrete example would help: consider:
> >> >> > - Albatrans, web site http://www.albatrans.net/
> >> >> > - headquarters: 48 Cours Blaise Pascal 91004 EVRY cedex (not
> visible
> >> >> > on
> >> >> > their site, but on another site,
> >> >> > http://www.optile.com/adherents/index.html
> >> >> > ); and "barycentre of their lines" = around Arpajon, lat/lon=
> >> >> > 48.590243,2.248542 , and radius of operation = 25 to 30 kilometers.
> >> >> > These
> >> >> > two (and only these two) last pieces of info were "extracted" from
> >> >> > their
> >> >> > transport map available on their site, I admit it.
> >> >> > - exactly 10 lines, interurban to departmental class, as can be
> seen
> >> >> > on
> >> >> > their page: http://www.albatrans.net/  -> then hit "nos lignes"
> (not
> >> >> > a
> >> >> > separate web adress)
> >> >> >
> >> >> > I gave this example here, because this company happens to be
> >> >> > precisely
> >> >> > the
> >> >> > type of company that would never answer to anyone: they are part of
> >> >> > the
> >> >> > few
> >> >> > ones that are not on itransports.fr; I called them several times,
> >> >> > over
> >> >> > six
> >> >> > months, without being able to pass the welcoming secretary, even to
> >> >> > get
> >> >> > any
> >> >> > commercial representative, not speaking of the director, of course.
> >> >> > As
> >> >> > you
> >> >> > may see, on their web site the don't even display the position of
> >> >> > their
> >> >> > headquarters, hiding it behind a post box, probably so as not to
> >> >> > recieve
> >> >> > too
> >> >> > much visits from unhappy people. This is precisely the kind of
> >> >> > company,
> >> >> > I
> >> >> > want to break: I would like to display at least something about
> them,
> >> >> > without them being able to complain.
> >> >> > So, what part of the previously mentionned data (name, adress of
> >> >> > headquarters/barycentre of transport network, radius of operation,
> >> >> > and
> >> >> > amount and class of their lines), am I legally authorized to
> display
> >> >> > on
> >> >> > transiki, according to French law or British law, or any other law,
> >> >> > without
> >> >> > having to ask permission to do so?
> >> >> > Thanks
> >> >> > Andrei
> >> >> > PS: was that more specific than my previous message?
> >> >> > 2010/12/8 Mike Dupont <jamesmikedupont at googlemail.com>
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> Hi,
> >> >> >> I would suggest that the devil is in the details, please be
> >> >> >> specific.
> >> >> >> my I suggest that you write a wikipeidia article about the agency
> >> >> >>  or
> >> >> >> wikitravel page about the timeplan/schedule and I will review it.
> >> >> >> mike
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> On Wed, Dec 8, 2010 at 3:43 AM, Andrei Klochko
> >> >> >> <transportsplan2 at gmail.com> wrote:
> >> >> >> > Hello again,
> >> >> >> > This time, no weird things. I thinked a little about the whole
> >> >> >> > transit
> >> >> >> > data
> >> >> >> > stuff, and I had an idea: if we think of the very minimalistic
> set
> >> >> >> > of
> >> >> >> > things, that someone willing to go to a "lost" place needs to
> know
> >> >> >> > to
> >> >> >> > succeed in planning his trip (I especially think of very lost
> >> >> >> > places,
> >> >> >> > far in
> >> >> >> > the countryside), then maybe, the "operating centre" (say,
> >> >> >> > headquarters'
> >> >> >> > adress), and at least the welcome page of the website, of
> >> >> >> > "surrounding"
> >> >> >> > transit agencies, would still be a good start for that. If, by
> >> >> >> > clicking
> >> >> >> > a
> >> >> >> > place, any user could have access to this minimalistic set of
> data
> >> >> >> > about
> >> >> >> > surrounding transit agencies, then at least he would know where
> to
> >> >> >> > search
> >> >> >> > the remaining data he needs to plan his trip. I am thinking here
> >> >> >> > of a
> >> >> >> > trip I
> >> >> >> > made to portugal last summer, and about my endless search for a
> >> >> >> > transit
> >> >> >> > agency that would cover a specific place, 30km west of Lisbon
> >> >> >> > (West
> >> >> >> > Birre
> >> >> >> > and Murches, for those who know), and I found everything about
> >> >> >> > what
> >> >> >> > was
> >> >> >> > just
> >> >> >> > 8km east  or further of that point, but nothing closer, no
> matter
> >> >> >> > how
> >> >> >> > hard I
> >> >> >> > searched for it. If only I had known the names of the transit
> >> >> >> > agencies
> >> >> >> > that
> >> >> >> > operated on that specific place, or at least around there (but
> as
> >> >> >> > much
> >> >> >> > of
> >> >> >> > them as possible, ideally all of them!) then when searching
> "their
> >> >> >> > name"
> >> >> >> > +
> >> >> >> > if necessary the names of surrounding cities, on google, I might
> >> >> >> > have
> >> >> >> > found
> >> >> >> > something. And then, if any data concerning these agencies were
> >> >> >> > available on
> >> >> >> > the internet (even by some local people that would have put
> these
> >> >> >> > timetables
> >> >> >> > on a local site, not belonging to the transit agency: this is
> not
> >> >> >> > our
> >> >> >> > problem!), I would have found the reamaining information I
> needed
> >> >> >> > :
> >> >> >> > plan,
> >> >> >> > and timetable, without anybody violating any copyright or
> database
> >> >> >> > right.
> >> >> >> > The problem of transit agencies who do not have a web site is
> >> >> >> > another
> >> >> >> > concern, as for that it falls back to the issue of true transit
> >> >> >> > data
> >> >> >> > and
> >> >> >> > the
> >> >> >> > necessity of an authorization to reproduce it (if the data about
> >> >> >> > their
> >> >> >> > lines
> >> >> >> > isn't available at all on the internet, then without the
> >> >> >> > authorization
> >> >> >> > you
> >> >> >> > could link to nowhere, neither could you take pictures and
> extract
> >> >> >> > anything
> >> >> >> > from them to put it on the internet, without proper
> authorization;
> >> >> >> > and
> >> >> >> > unless the positions of the bus stops, acquired by means of a
> gps,
> >> >> >> > are
> >> >> >> > free
> >> >> >> > to use (which, I guess, we still cannot decide for sure), then I
> >> >> >> > think,
> >> >> >> > based on what was said earlier, that we can do nothing about
> this
> >> >> >> > problem
> >> >> >> > yet.)
> >> >> >> >
> >> >> >> > So, I would like to know: is it possible, without asking any
> >> >> >> > permission,
> >> >> >> > to
> >> >> >> > put at least one geographical point about a transit agency, on
> the
> >> >> >> > osm
> >> >> >> > (or
> >> >> >> > transiki) map, weither it be the adress of its headquarters or
> the
> >> >> >> > barycentre of their transport network, and, say, the number
> >> >> >> > (amount)
> >> >> >> > of
> >> >> >> > their lines?The total amount of lines a company operates, and if
> >> >> >> > possible,
> >> >> >> > the average distance each line runs on, would be useful to know
> in
> >> >> >> > order
> >> >> >> > to
> >> >> >> > decide, for example, wether you include a transit agency in a
> >> >> >> > search
> >> >> >> > related
> >> >> >> > to one point on the map, or not. It would give a hint about its
> >> >> >> > transport
> >> >> >> > network's "radius" of operation, "how far it can reach", more or
> >> >> >> > less.
> >> >> >> > Also,
> >> >> >> > you could simply classify transit agencies in different
> >> >> >> > categories:
> >> >> >> > urban,
> >> >> >> > interurban, regional, national, if it happens that "average line
> >> >> >> > length"
> >> >> >> > is
> >> >> >> > still too much data to be free of use.
> >> >> >> >
> >> >> >> > And also, is it always possible to link to a website's front
> page
> >> >> >> > without
> >> >> >> > asking permission to the site's owner?
> >> >> >> >
> >> >> >> > I'm asking here about minimalistic things, I mean, there must at
> >> >> >> > least
> >> >> >> > be
> >> >> >> > something  you could systematicly say about all transit
> agencies,
> >> >> >> > wether
> >> >> >> > they agree with it or not, on transiki, and possibly, without
> any
> >> >> >> > strong
> >> >> >> > dependancy to the local country's law...and if the headquarters'
> >> >> >> > adress
> >> >> >> > is
> >> >> >> > still not a free piece of data you can add without asking, then
> >> >> >> > find
> >> >> >> > another
> >> >> >> > relevant set of coordinates. At least something!
> >> >> >> >
> >> >> >> > And what about quoting the name itself of the transit agency?
> >> >> >> > Isn't
> >> >> >> > it
> >> >> >> > using
> >> >> >> > a trademark on a third party website without authorization of
> the
> >> >> >> > owner
> >> >> >> > of
> >> >> >> > the trademark? I would say no based on the fact that google
> seems
> >> >> >> > to
> >> >> >> > have
> >> >> >> > the authorization to display almost anything about a company
> when
> >> >> >> > you
> >> >> >> > search
> >> >> >> > for it - on google, but still...
> >> >> >> >
> >> >> >> > Thank you in advance for your help, and sorry if I insist like
> >> >> >> > that
> >> >> >> > on
> >> >> >> > the
> >> >> >> > "not asking the authorization" thing: I only believe that it
> could
> >> >> >> > make
> >> >> >> > the
> >> >> >> > gathering of at least some data...much much faster, and the
> >> >> >> > coverage
> >> >> >> > of
> >> >> >> > the
> >> >> >> > transiki map, at least in its poorest informative power, could
> be
> >> >> >> > really
> >> >> >> > great much more quickly, if we can achieve it legally. And
> >> >> >> > besides,
> >> >> >> > it
> >> >> >> > would
> >> >> >> > need much less effort, than if we always had to negociate with
> >> >> >> > every
> >> >> >> > single
> >> >> >> > transit agency, to get any single piece of their data,
> especially
> >> >> >> > if
> >> >> >> > they
> >> >> >> > never answer to anything about these type of questions, for any
> >> >> >> > reason
> >> >> >> > they
> >> >> >> > may have...
> >> >> >> > Good night
> >> >> >> > Andrei
> >> >> >> >
> >> >> >> > _______________________________________________
> >> >> >> > legal-talk mailing list
> >> >> >> > legal-talk at openstreetmap.org
> >> >> >> > http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/legal-talk
> >> >> >> >
> >> >> >> >
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> --
> >> >> >> James Michael DuPont
> >> >> >> Member of Free Libre Open Source Software Kosova and Albania
> >> >> >> flossk.org flossal.org
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> _______________________________________________
> >> >> >> legal-talk mailing list
> >> >> >> legal-talk at openstreetmap.org
> >> >> >> http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/legal-talk
> >> >> >
> >> >> >
> >> >> > _______________________________________________
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> >> >> >
> >> >> >
> >> >>
> >> >>
> >> >>
> >> >> --
> >> >> James Michael DuPont
> >> >> Member of Free Libre Open Source Software Kosova and Albania
> >> >> flossk.org flossal.org
> >> >>
> >> >> _______________________________________________
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> >> >
> >> >
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> >> >
> >> >
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> --
> >> James Michael DuPont
> >> Member of Free Libre Open Source Software Kosova and Albania
> >> flossk.org flossal.org
> >>
> >> _______________________________________________
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> >
>
>
>
> --
> James Michael DuPont
> Member of Free Libre Open Source Software Kosova and Albania
> flossk.org flossal.org
>
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