[OSM-newbies] newbies Digest, Vol 33, Issue 25

[Aspen Swartz]

The problem with advocating maximal accuracy in tagging, to me, is
that this is worldwide and multilingual map.  Being linguistically
accurate with each tag would mean that that map is not especially
useful to strangers to the area.

For example:  there are places where there are streams at some times
of the year, and not others.  In various places in the world, they are
called intermittent stream, arroyos, dry washes, washes, dry gulches,
wadis, etc.  These all mean the same thing, and yet all mean different
things. There are subtle differences in meaning between all of them.
If we pick one- let's say "wadi"- and tag all similar features that
way, many people won't know what it means.  But they can look it up in
the wiki, and say to themselves, 'oh, it's an arroyo!" and tag their
local arroyos as wadis.  That way, a person who would call that kind
of thing a dry gulch, can look at the arroyo on the map, tagged as a
wadi, and, having read the wiki if confused, realize that it's a dry
gulch, in the same way that I look at the map, see "footway", and
think "oh, that's a sidewalk".   Because I read what footway was, and
it sounded like a good enough approximation for sidewalk.

It would be more accurate in some sense to use exactly the right word
for each feature.  But then there would be too many different kinds of
features for an amateur to read the map for a foreign place, because
geographical features are named locally.

In some ways I think the map would be better if it had only the local
names and descriptions of things.  There would be no footways,
guideposts, tracks, drains, motorways, or bus guideways in my part of
the world.  There would be sidewalks, signposts, logging roads,
ditches, freeways, and busways.  And there would never, ever be
deprecated features.  But then you wouldn't be able to compare the
extent of footways between Canada and Germany, or any number of other
generalizations.  Building a worldwide map involves a certain amount
of translation, and I think it's useful to pick a single word that
covers some general concepts.  Generalizations are always inaccurate,
but they enable us to come to general conclusions.

I think I get the point about the map being a giant database.  An
essential part of the creation of a database is parsing the data into
categories into which messy reality does not fit perfectly.

I think my personal conclusion after thinking about this way too much,
is that living street should be deprecated, and tagged instead as
highway=pedestrian and type=living street.  It's clearly too specific,
to the people familiar with it, to be used outside of Europe.

On Sat, Nov 14, 2009 at 10:34 AM,  <newbies-request at openstreetmap.org> wrote:
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> Today's Topics:
>
>   1. Re: Small streams under minor tarmac roads (Kjeldgaard Morten)
>   2. Re: Small streams under minor tarmac roads (Kjeldgaard Morten)
>   3. Re: Small streams under minor tarmac roads (Cartinus)
>   4. Re: Small streams under minor tarmac roads (James Ewen)
>   5. Re: Small streams under minor tarmac roads (Kjeldgaard Morten)
>   6. tertiary dirt roads? (Charlotte Wolter)
>   7. Re: Small streams under minor tarmac roads (Pieren)
>   8. Re: Small streams under minor tarmac roads (Kjeldgaard Morten)
>   9. Re: Small streams under minor tarmac roads (James Ewen)
>
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Message: 1
> Date: Sat, 14 Nov 2009 13:29:08 +0100
> From: Kjeldgaard Morten <mok at bioxray.dk>
> Subject: Re: [OSM-newbies] Small streams under minor tarmac roads
> To: newbies at openstreetmap.org
> Message-ID: <6F71FEFE-922A-407B-B50B-23ECA7CC59A1 at bioxray.dk>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed; delsp=yes
>
>
> On 12/11/2009, at 12.29, Jonathan Bennett wrote:
>
>> If those tags don't accurately describe the feature you're mapping,
>> then
>> you shouldn't use them. Try not to think of OpenStreetMap as being a
>> single rendered map, but more of a digital description of the
>> geographical world.
>
> +1
>
> This paragraph should be featured very prominently on the Wiki!
>
> -- Morten
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 2
> Date: Sat, 14 Nov 2009 13:34:59 +0100
> From: Kjeldgaard Morten <mok at bioxray.dk>
> Subject: Re: [OSM-newbies] Small streams under minor tarmac roads
> To: newbies at openstreetmap.org
> Message-ID: <6E077A30-45EB-4C86-B56C-6A3C8CC3B0BB at bioxray.dk>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed; delsp=yes
>
>
> On 12/11/2009, at 14.25, Pieren wrote:
>
>> I completely disagree. If you want to be "accurate", then all english
>> words describing objects will finish in the Map Features. Please,
>
> You might disagree, but you are also wrong. OSM is a database, not a
> map. It is very important to get features tagged correctly from the
> start. If you don't do it from the beginning, someone else will have
> to come back, notice the error and correct what you've done. That's a
> complete waste of your time, so why participate in the OSM at all?
>
>> don't create "accurate" tags for everything. It's better to use
>> approximations than nothing. Otherwise mapping for OSM will be
>> reserved to a very limited amount of experts, surely very proud about
>> themselves.
>
> What's the point of mocking experts, rather than listening to them?
>
> Cheers,
> Morten
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 3
> Date: Sat, 14 Nov 2009 15:52:20 +0100
> From: Cartinus <cartinus at xs4all.nl>
> Subject: Re: [OSM-newbies] Small streams under minor tarmac roads
> To: newbies at openstreetmap.org
> Message-ID: <200911141552.20594.cartinus at xs4all.nl>
> Content-Type: text/plain;  charset="iso-8859-1"
>
> On Saturday 14 November 2009 13:34:59 Kjeldgaard Morten wrote:
>> > don't create "accurate" tags for everything. It's better to use
>> > approximations than nothing. Otherwise mapping for OSM will be
>> > reserved to a very limited amount of experts, surely very proud about
>> > themselves.
>>
>> What's the point of mocking experts, rather than listening to them?
>
> That is apart from the fact that you don't even need to be an expert to
> recognise a concrete pipe.
>
> After I first encountered a concrete pipe connecting two drains during
> mapping, it took me less than a minute with google to figure out this was
> called a culvert in English (which is not my native language).
>
> --
> m.v.g.,
> Cartinus
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 4
> Date: Sat, 14 Nov 2009 10:21:45 -0700
> From: James Ewen <ve6srv at gmail.com>
> Subject: Re: [OSM-newbies] Small streams under minor tarmac roads
> To: newbies at openstreetmap.org
> Message-ID:
>        <fe2e5b210911140921o6e5690ddm99d4304067380f18 at mail.gmail.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
>
> On Sat, Nov 14, 2009 at 5:34 AM, Kjeldgaard Morten <mok at bioxray.dk> wrote:
>
>> You might disagree, but you are also wrong. OSM is a database, not a
>> map. It is very important to get features tagged correctly from the
>> start. If you don't do it from the beginning, someone else will have
>> to come back, notice the error and correct what you've done. That's a
>> complete waste of your time, so why participate in the OSM at all?
>
> In this vein then, why are we tagging the roads incorrectly in North
> America? In Canada we do not have a "Motorway" designation, yet there
> are many thousands of miles of "Freeway", or "Limited Access Highway"
> tagged incorrectly. There's no tag for business frontage roads, those
> are mostly tagged as service, but service also is what we have to use
> for alleys, a totally different type and class of roadway.
>
> If we get to the point where anyone adding data to the OSM database
> has to become an expert at every feature before they can tag it, then
> we will lose most of our support.
>
> I have tracked thousands of miles of highways in British Columbia,
> Alberta, and Saskatchewan in the past few years. I converted them to
> ways, and tagged them as to the type of road, and in the case of major
> highways, with a reference number, and a name. I didn't put in surface
> type, number of lanes, what province/county it was in, maximum speed
> limit, plus a whole host of other details.
>
> Since someone else could add in more detail to what I have done,
> according to your standards, I should not have bothered entering the
> data that I collected. Should I go back and rip up all the traces that
> I have added because they are not completely tagged?
>
> OSM is about group participation. Each participant brings what he/she
> can to the table, and helps out to the best of their ability/desires.
> This is a volunteer organization, and as with any volunteer
> organization, you gratefully accept the assistance you get. You can
> coach and mentor those who are contributing to enhance their skills,
> and increase the value of the work they bring to the project, and you
> can politely ask those who damage or destroy information to leave. You
> can not demand things of volunteers, it just doesn't work that way.
>
>>> don't create "accurate" tags for everything. It's better to use
>>> approximations than nothing. Otherwise mapping for OSM will be
>>> reserved to a very limited amount of experts, surely very proud about
>>> themselves.
>>
>> What's the point of mocking experts, rather than listening to them?
>
> I don't think Pieren was mocking the experts... but rather merely
> pointing out that we all don't need to be experts to be able to add
> some value to the OSM project. What's the point of telling volunteers
> to not participate if they aren't going to do everything perfectly?
>
> One of the threads recently was about using OSM to allow volunteers to
> go out into their neighborhood and mark the location of a tree for
> later identification by an expert. In my area, we have issues with
> Dutch Elm disease. Any dead wood on an Elm tree needs to be removed to
> keep the tree healthy. In my front yard, I have what I thought was an
> Elm tree when I moved in. Later on, I was informed that it was not an
> Elm, but rather a Green Ash... I guess according to your criteria,  I
> couldn't mark this tree, because I didn't know the species... The OSM
> project could easily be used to mark tree locations for identification
> and maintenance, and it can be done without having to be an expert
> botanist.
>
> We need to encourage those that are interested in participating to do
> just that, and to mentor and educate those who are interested and
> willing to learn, creating better cartographers in the process.
>
> Just about anyone with no expertise in cartography can collect GPS
> traces and upload them, or mark the location of a local mailbox, or
> the local drug store.
>
> Think of this as an apprenticeship. One Journeyman carpenter with 3
> people pulled off the street can frame a house faster than trying to
> do it himself. It will take a bit of work for the Journeyman at first,
> teaching the basics, but after a little while, those 3 newbies will
> start to catch on, and be able to pound nails into the right places by
> themselves. With enough instruction and encouragement, they too might
> one day be a Journeyman on their own project.
>
> Apprenitces need guidance, training and encouragement... yes,
> sometimes we might have to tear down a wall that got put together
> wrong, but that should be used as a place to explain where the
> problems occurred, and how to build it right. It's not a time to say
> "You screwed up the whole house, get out of here!"
>
> The OSM project needs to accept the help that it receives from those
> that participate, no matter what their skill level. Yes, it can mean
> others needing to add more detail in the future, but that's what OSM
> is all about... it's a community effort.
>
> James
> VE6SRV
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 5
> Date: Sat, 14 Nov 2009 18:59:46 +0100
> From: Kjeldgaard Morten <mok at bioxray.dk>
> Subject: Re: [OSM-newbies] Small streams under minor tarmac roads
> To: newbies at openstreetmap.org
> Message-ID: <38FBEA0B-64EA-4576-8056-0F043024E780 at bioxray.dk>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed; delsp=yes
>
>
> On 14/11/2009, at 18.21, James Ewen wrote:
>
>> On Sat, Nov 14, 2009 at 5:34 AM, Kjeldgaard Morten <mok at bioxray.dk>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> You might disagree, but you are also wrong. OSM is a database, not a
>>> map. It is very important to get features tagged correctly from the
>>> start. If you don't do it from the beginning, someone else will have
>>> to come back, notice the error and correct what you've done. That's a
>>> complete waste of your time, so why participate in the OSM at all?
>>
>> In this vein then, why are we tagging the roads incorrectly in North
>> America? In Canada we do not have a "Motorway" designation, yet there
>> are many thousands of miles of "Freeway", or "Limited Access Highway"
>> tagged incorrectly. There's no tag for business frontage roads, those
>> are mostly tagged as service, but service also is what we have to use
>> for alleys, a totally different type and class of roadway.
>
> You are getting carried far out along a tangent here. My remarks were
> not meant to be universally applicable to everything in- and outside
> OSM; doing so can make anything meaningless. My remarks are addressing
> the specific discussion about tunnels vs. culverts.
>
>> OSM is about group participation. Each participant brings what he/she
>> can to the table, and helps out to the best of their ability/desires.
>> This is a volunteer organization, and as with any volunteer
>> organization, you gratefully accept the assistance you get. You can
>> coach and mentor those who are contributing to enhance their skills,
>> and increase the value of the work they bring to the project, and you
>> can politely ask those who damage or destroy information to leave. You
>> can not demand things of volunteers, it just doesn't work that way.
>
> I agree completely. However, if those volunteers just do wtf they want
> regardless of what the community says, it's not participation.
>
>>>> don't create "accurate" tags for everything. It's better to use
>>>> approximations than nothing. Otherwise mapping for OSM will be
>>>> reserved to a very limited amount of experts, surely very proud
>>>> about
>>>> themselves.
>>>
>>> What's the point of mocking experts, rather than listening to them?
>>
>> I don't think Pieren was mocking the experts... but rather merely
>> pointing out that we all don't need to be experts to be able to add
>> some value to the OSM project. What's the point of telling volunteers
>> to not participate if they aren't going to do everything perfectly?
>
> Well, saying that experts are "very  proud of themselves" is mocking
> as far as I'm concerned. It implies that what the experts are doing
> and saying is worthless except to themselves. Furthermore, Andy kindly
> pointed out that he's an engineer working with underground
> infrastructure. In other words, Andy knows what he's talking about.
> Such expertise is extremely valuable, but still Piernen mockingly
> callied himself "Tunnel and underground infrastructure amateur". Quite
> pointless and impertinent.
>
> The fact that OSM can attrackt experts, professionals and researchers
> is quite impressive;  we should be proud of that and pay respect when
> offered advice.
>
> -- Morten
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 6
> Date: Sat, 14 Nov 2009 10:02:14 -0800
> From: Charlotte Wolter <techlady at techlady.com>
> Subject: [OSM-newbies] tertiary dirt roads?
> To: newbies at openstreetmap.org
> Message-ID: <6.2.3.4.2.20091114100205.042f7088 at mail.adelphia.net>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
>
> Everyone,
>
>         I need guidance on tagging where dirt roads are major ways.
> In western parts of the United States, especially the Southwest, a
> dirt road may be a major link, reaching deep into a rural area. These
> usually are very good dirt roads, wide and graded regularly. Because
> of their good quality, they provide access for the average passenger
> car, which often can travel these roads at a fairly high rate of
> speed, say 35 or 45 miles an hour.
>         If these ways are tagged as "track," they are rendered on
> the map as an ordinary brown line. At lower resolutions, the brown
> line becomes rendered as a dashed brown line, and the character of
> these roads is lost completely.  They are mapped like any other dirt track.
>         So I have been tagging them as tertiary roads and have added
> "tracktype=grade1."  Is this a problem? Is there an alternative?
>
> Charlotte Wolter
>
>
> Charlotte Wolter
> 927 18th Street Suite A
> Santa Monica, California
> 90403
> +1-310-597-4040
> techlady at techlady.com
>
> The Four Internet Freedoms
> Freedom to visit any site on the Internet
> Freedom to access any content or service that is not illegal
> Freedom to attach any device that does not interfere with the network
> Freedom to know all the terms of a service, particularly any that
> would affect the first three freedoms.
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> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 7
> Date: Sat, 14 Nov 2009 19:12:33 +0100
> From: Pieren <pieren3 at gmail.com>
> Subject: Re: [OSM-newbies] Small streams under minor tarmac roads
> To: newbies at openstreetmap.org
> Message-ID:
>        <a246bf750911141012q5bd5914bg1f9c7dea003e4955 at mail.gmail.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
>
> On Sat, Nov 14, 2009 at 1:34 PM, Kjeldgaard Morten <mok at bioxray.dk> wrote:
>> You might disagree, but you are also wrong. OSM is a database, not a
>> map. It is very important to get features tagged correctly from the
>> start. If you don't do it from the beginning, someone else will have
>> to come back, notice the error and correct what you've done. That's a
>> complete waste of your time, so why participate in the OSM at all?
>>
>
> Yeah, I'm asking myself why I started to participate to OSM two years
> ago, when highway=path or building =* did not exist.
> "culvert" is not in my small dictionnary. I'm sure it is the right
> technical word but don't say to the contributors "don't tag if you
> don't use the right technical word". This is the best way to
> discourage newcomers.
>
> Pieren
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 8
> Date: Sat, 14 Nov 2009 19:29:31 +0100
> From: Kjeldgaard Morten <mok at bioxray.dk>
> Subject: Re: [OSM-newbies] Small streams under minor tarmac roads
> To: newbies at openstreetmap.org
> Message-ID: <643D320C-99C3-4B7A-A42E-6A2572265A60 at bioxray.dk>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed; delsp=yes
>
>
> On 14/11/2009, at 19.12, Pieren wrote:
>
>> Yeah, I'm asking myself why I started to participate to OSM two years
>> ago, when highway=path or building =* did not exist.
>> "culvert" is not in my small dictionnary. I'm sure it is the right
>> technical word but don't say to the contributors "don't tag if you
>> don't use the right technical word". This is the best way to
>> discourage newcomers.
>
> No. Newcomers -- did you read the OP? --  write and ask on the mailing
> list. People are friendly and give good advice. Occasionally this
> advice is put down and ridiculed in an insolent manner.
>
> -- Morten
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 9
> Date: Sat, 14 Nov 2009 11:34:38 -0700
> From: James Ewen <ve6srv at gmail.com>
> Subject: Re: [OSM-newbies] Small streams under minor tarmac roads
> To: newbies at openstreetmap.org
> Message-ID:
>        <fe2e5b210911141034y531a011eqaa3750d110b01ee6 at mail.gmail.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
>
> On Sat, Nov 14, 2009 at 10:59 AM, Kjeldgaard Morten <mok at bioxray.dk> wrote:
>
>> You are getting carried far out along a tangent here. My remarks were
>> not meant to be universally applicable to everything in- and outside
>> OSM; doing so can make anything meaningless. My remarks are addressing
>> the specific discussion about tunnels vs. culverts.
>
> A culvert is a type of tunnel... a motorway is a type of road. We are
> talking about sub-classifications here. I don't see where this is
> outside of the scope of the concept of tagging ways, let alone outside
> the scope of the OSM project.
>
> We seem to do fairly well describing the road network with a limited
> subset of tags, and the road network is something that is very visible
> to those of us who are not "roadway experts". Holes in the ground are
> very much less observable, and therefore much harder for those of us
> who are not "tunnel and underground infrastructure" experts to
> identify. Without being one of those experts, it would be difficult to
> know the proper tags to use. (Note, I am not attempting to mock anyone
> using these titles)
>
>
>>> You can
>>> coach and mentor those who are contributing to enhance their skills,
>>> and increase the value of the work they bring to the project, and you
>>> can politely ask those who damage or destroy information to leave.
>>
>> I agree completely. However, if those volunteers just do wtf they want
>> regardless of what the community says, it's not participation.
>
> Which is what I said above, even given that, it's difficult to stop a
> vandal. However, someone adding roadways to the OSM database, but not
> including something like a surfacetype tag is not a vandal. Even if
> they tag the way as primary when it should be secondary, that is not
> vandalism.
>
>> The fact that OSM can attrackt experts, professionals and researchers
>> is quite impressive; ?we should be proud of that and pay respect when
>> offered advice.
>
> Indeed, but we can not expect every OSM contributor to be an expert on
> every feature included in OSM. We leverage the knowledge level and
> skill set of every contributor, from a dummy like me right up to
> experts on every facet of their chosen field.
>
> If the OSM community decides that the culvert tag is appropriate, we
> simply send a bot out looking for all streams going through tunnels.
>
> Perhaps Andy could give us a quick education on what constitutes a tunnel.
>
> James
> VE6SRV
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
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> End of newbies Digest, Vol 33, Issue 25
> ***************************************
>