[Osmf-talk] Cloudmade and OSMF

Fri Aug 21 06:31:05 UTC 2009

Re signups.

I just wanted to mention that there were many non foundation people at SOTM
and Nick was doing a great job as an ambassador for the OSMF encouraging
people to join. I went home inspired by the conference and joined the
foundation and have voted for those who impressed me both on the wiki and at
the conference.

I have been following the Cloudmade bashing on this mail list for a while
now and am surprised at it. Most open source projects need to find a
symbiotic relationship with commercial companies if they are going to
flourish. I think you underestimate the contribution that Steve and Nick
have been able to make to OSM BECAUSE of their employment by Cloudmade.

Just for the record i don't work for Cloudmade, consult for them or have any
axe to grind for them. But the guys deserve a fair crack of the whip and
perhaps some respect for their contributions and energy.
-- 
Regards

Steven Feldman
KnowWhere Consulting

Mobile:     +44 (0)7958 924101
Web:        http://GIScussions.blogspot.com
Twitter: http://twitter.com/stevenfeldman

2009/8/20 <osmf-talk-request at openstreetmap.org>

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> Today's Topics:
>
>   1. Re: EVERYONE: PLEASE VOTE (Sergiy Drapiko)
>   2. Re: EVERYONE: PLEASE VOTE (Andy Robinson (blackadder))
>   3. Re: EVERYONE: PLEASE VOTE (David Earl)
>   4. Re: EVERYONE: PLEASE VOTE (Andy Robinson (blackadder))
>   5. Re: EVERYONE: PLEASE VOTE (Jens M?ller)
>   6. Re: EVERYONE: PLEASE VOTE (Nick Black)
>
>
> ---------- Forwarded message ----------
> From: Sergiy Drapiko <sdrapiko at cloudmade.com>
> To: Grant Slater <openstreetmap at firefishy.com>
> Date: Thu, 20 Aug 2009 14:42:45 +0300
> Subject: Re: [Osmf-talk] EVERYONE: PLEASE VOTE
> Grant,
>
> While the initial comment was not particularly nice to Cloudmade (to say
> the least), you are pushing too far. As far as I am concerned, no one in
> Cloudmade have approached me with an offer to pay for my OSMF membership,
> let alone "order" me to register.
>
> Also, 15 pounds a year is not a significant amount, so you can rest assured
> that the rest of Ukraine's OSM community are financially capable to join if
> they want to. Finding a credit card that works with PayPal over here IS a
> problem, but that's a TODO for OSMF, not Cloudmade's fault.
>
> BR,
> Sergiy
>
> On Thu, Aug 20, 2009 at 1:56 PM, Grant Slater <openstreetmap at firefishy.com
> > wrote:
>
>> 2009/8/20 Nick Black <nick at blacksworld.net>:
>> > No, I don't think it is cause for concern.  Neither do many of the other
>> > people who have replied to this thread.  I'll only briefly repeat
>> myself:
>> > CloudMade staff are free to vote as they choose, just as everyone else
>> in
>> > the community is.
>> >
>>
>> The OSMF membership secretary investigating the membership spike from
>> one company is cause for concern alone.
>>
>> CloudMade employees brought to OpenStreetMap exclusively by their
>> employment and their OSMF membership being paid via their boss does
>> not seem kosher to me. Let alone it seems unfair to the rest of the
>> OSM Community in Ukraine (and the rest of the world) who are unable to
>> have their voices heard by joining the OSMF.
>>
>> / Grant
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> osmf-talk mailing list
>> osmf-talk at openstreetmap.org
>> http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/osmf-talk
>>
>
>
>
> ---------- Forwarded message ----------
> From: "Andy Robinson \(blackadder\)" <blackadderajr at googlemail.com>
> To: "'Peter Miller'" <peter.miller at itoworld.com>
> Date: Thu, 20 Aug 2009 12:44:50 +0100
> Subject: Re: [Osmf-talk] EVERYONE: PLEASE VOTE
> Peter Miller wrote:
> >Sent: 20 August 2009 12:37 PM
> >To: Andy Robinson (blackadder)
> >Cc: 'Nick Black'; osmf-talk at openstreetmap.org
> >Subject: Re: [Osmf-talk] EVERYONE: PLEASE VOTE
> >
> >
> >On 20 Aug 2009, at 12:16, Andy Robinson (blackadder) wrote:
> >
> >> Peter Miller wrote:
> >>> Sent: 20 August 2009 12:06 PM
> >>> To: Andy Robinson (blackadder)
> >>> Cc: 'Nick Black'; osmf-talk at openstreetmap.org
> >>> Subject: Re: [Osmf-talk] EVERYONE: PLEASE VOTE
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> On 20 Aug 2009, at 11:50, Andy Robinson (blackadder) wrote:
> >>>
> >>>> Peter Miller wrote:
> >>>>> Sent: 20 August 2009 11:13 AM
> >>>>> To: Nick Black
> >>>>> Cc: osmf-talk at openstreetmap.org
> >>>>> Subject: Re: [Osmf-talk] EVERYONE: PLEASE VOTE
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>> On 20 Aug 2009, at 11:05, Nick Black wrote:
> >>>>>
> >>>>>> Grant,
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> I think that the OSM-F membership list should be available for
> >>>>>> anyone
> >>>>>> to request for their own personal use, in line with the UK
> >>>>>> Companies
> >>>>>> Act.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> My understanding and the understanding of the Board is that
> >>>>>> because
> >>>>>> the OSM-F is not Data Protection Act registered, we are tightly
> >>>>>> constrained by what we can do with a membership list.  Until last
> >>>>>> night I did not have access to the list.  We can only use it for
> >>>>>> purposes of membership - sending membership reminders is about the
> >>>>>> extent of the actions we can take.  I personally think this is sub
> >>>>>> optimal, which is why I'm working with the other OSM-F Board
> >>>>>> members
> >>>>>> to get clarification on the DPA and other regulations.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> I think the members should have access to the membership list and
> >>>>>> the
> >>>>>> information that can be inferred from it, but this has to be done
> >>>>>> through the proper channels.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> The Foundation is legally required to register under the Data
> >>>>> Protection Act 1998 and failure to do so is a criminal offence:-
> >>>>> "Notification is a statutory requirement and every organisation
> >>>>> that
> >>>>> processes personal information must notify the Information
> >>>>> Commissioner's Office (ICO), unless they are exempt. Failure to
> >>>>> notify
> >>>>> is a criminal offence.
> >>>>
> >>>> Ah, but you have not stated what the exemptions are. We know that we
> >>>> do need
> >>>> to register because of all the things we might need to be able to do
> >>>> with
> >>>> the wider OSM database (the OSM User data). The membership is a
> >>>> different
> >>>> matter and as Nick says, its not a requirement to notify for the
> >>>> purposes of
> >>>> managing an individual's membership as far as I am aware and thus
> >>>> not
> >>>> legally required on what we have used the data for to date, but
> >>>> clearly it
> >>>> is in our interests to do so for the future.
> >>>
> >>> A quick look at the exemptions does indeed appear to confirm that
> >>> some
> >>> basic stuff is allowed by not-for-profit organisations which may mean
> >>> that all our directors do not 'go straight to jail' (apologies for
> >>> suggesting that they might). I do hope however that we apply if we
> >>> need to so that we can be transparent organisation that we all
> >>> desire:-
> >>
> >> Luckily I was playing monopoly recently and have a "Get out of jail
> >> free"
> >> card left :-)
> >>
> >> +1 on the transparency and hence why notification and compliance to
> >> permit
> >> some use of personal data beyond the restrictions currently imposed
> >> is being
> >> actively evaluated and addressed.
> >>
> >
> >Good news. It would of course be useful to have board meeting minutes
> >available for meetings held since 14 April 2009 so that others can see
> >what the board is working on and is not working on - most of us are
> >working in the dark at present and can only guess.
> >
>
>
> Thanks for pointing that out. Correcting now.
>
> Cheers
> Andy
>
>
>
>
>
>
> ---------- Forwarded message ----------
> From: David Earl <david at frankieandshadow.com>
> To: "Andy Robinson (blackadder)" <blackadderajr at googlemail.com>
> Date: Thu, 20 Aug 2009 12:45:27 +0100
> Subject: Re: [Osmf-talk] EVERYONE: PLEASE VOTE
> On 20/08/2009 12:16, Andy Robinson (blackadder) wrote:
>
>> "Not-for-profit organisations
>>>
>> ...
>
>>
>>>
>> Thanks, this is exactly the section we have been working under to date and
>> the reason why we can't just throw out lists of members and personal info
>> ad
>> hoc.
>>
>
> I researched this for Cambridge Cycling Campaign some time ago (which
> though its legal status is different, also falls under this exemption). We
> produced the following, and require our committee members to sign a paper
> saying they have read and understood their obligations with respect to
> member's personal details regarding this policy:
> http://www.camcycle.org.uk/about/dataprotection/
>
> David
>
>
>
>
>
> ---------- Forwarded message ----------
> From: "Andy Robinson \(blackadder\)" <blackadderajr at googlemail.com>
> To: "'David Earl'" <david at frankieandshadow.com>
> Date: Thu, 20 Aug 2009 12:46:38 +0100
> Subject: Re: [Osmf-talk] EVERYONE: PLEASE VOTE
> David Earl [mailto:david at frankieandshadow.com] wrote:
> >Sent: 20 August 2009 12:45 PM
> >To: Andy Robinson (blackadder)
> >Cc: 'Peter Miller'; osmf-talk at openstreetmap.org
> >Subject: Re: [Osmf-talk] EVERYONE: PLEASE VOTE
> >
> >On 20/08/2009 12:16, Andy Robinson (blackadder) wrote:
> >>> "Not-for-profit organisations
> >...
> >>>
> >>
> >> Thanks, this is exactly the section we have been working under to date
> >and
> >> the reason why we can't just throw out lists of members and personal
> info
> >ad
> >> hoc.
> >
> >I researched this for Cambridge Cycling Campaign some time ago (which
> >though its legal status is different, also falls under this exemption).
> >We produced the following, and require our committee members to sign a
> >paper saying they have read and understood their obligations with
> >respect to member's personal details regarding this policy:
> >http://www.camcycle.org.uk/about/dataprotection/
> >
> >David
>
>
> That's useful.
>
> Thanks David.
>
> Andy
>
>
>
>
>
> ---------- Forwarded message ----------
> From: "Jens Müller" <ich at tessarakt.de>
> To: osmf-talk at openstreetmap.org
> Date: Thu, 20 Aug 2009 13:51:34 +0200
> Subject: Re: [Osmf-talk] EVERYONE: PLEASE VOTE
> On 20.08.2009 13:42, Sergiy Drapiko wrote:
> > Finding a credit card that works with PayPal over here IS a problem, but
> > that's a TODO for OSMF, not Cloudmade's fault.
>
> At the very least, OSMF should accept payments via another payment
> processor, e.g., Google Checkout.
>
> Cheers,
>
> Jens
>
>
>
>
> ---------- Forwarded message ----------
> From: Nick Black <nick at blacksworld.net>
> To: 80n <80n80n at gmail.com>
> Date: Thu, 20 Aug 2009 13:05:04 +0100
> Subject: Re: [Osmf-talk] EVERYONE: PLEASE VOTE
>
> On 20 Aug 2009, at 12:34, 80n wrote:
>
> On Thu, Aug 20, 2009 at 8:42 AM, Jim Brown <jbrown at jwbsystems.com> wrote:
>
>>  I have been encouraging everyone I know, who is interested in maps, to
>> join OSM and the OSMF.  This includes friends, co workers and suppliers…
>> Over the last week or so a number of people have indicated to me that they
>> could not join because of either the lack of a credit card (in a couple
>> cases) or the inability to authorize a Ukrainian card in PayPal (in most
>> cases).  I told them they could register with my card if needed and that I’d
>> do the transaction for them.  I did the transaction in one go which is why
>> the one day bump.
>>
>
> PayPal is not the only method of payment.  The sign-up page makes it quite
> clear that there are other methods [1].
>
>
> Yes, but most Ukrainian (and presumably many other) credit cards don't
> authorize through Paypal, as Jim said.  And a bank transfer would be #!£#$#
> :-)
>
>
> There have been no enquiries from any CloudMade employee or associate in
> the past weeks asking about alternative ways of paying.
>
>
> That could be because their first port of call was with their local OSM-F
> representative - me ;-)  Weren't you or Mike were contacted by one of the
> CloudMade managers in Kyiv who's credit card had worked to check about
> registrations earlier this week - that's what you told me yesterday?
>
>
> The sign-up curve is a smoking gun that indicates a coordinated or directed
> campaign.
>
>
> Or just indicates that amongst the numerous people I have encouraged to
> join the Foundation and vote over the last month or so, there is one
> homogenous group that is easily identifiable.  I've probably also encouraged
> another  10-15 people to sign up to the OSM-Foundation - but they are not
> easily identifiable and so are not part of the question.
>
> There is nothing illegitimate about such a campaign but it carries the
> appearance to many people of not acting in good faith.
>
>
> Not to everyone, in fact, most people on this list and many that have
> contacted me offlist are not questioning the whether we were acting in good
> faith or not.  Most people assume that we were and accept that timing was
> not optimal, but was a side effect of the difficulty with payments.
>
> --
> Nick
>
>
> Etienne
>
> [1] http://foundation.openstreetmap.org/join/
>
>
>
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>
>  --
> Nick Black
> twitter.com/nick_b
> nick at blacksworld.net
>
>
>
>
>
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