[Osmf-talk] Cloudmade and OSMF

ce-test, qualified testing bv - Gert Gremmen g.gremmen at cetest.nl
Fri Aug 21 12:19:59 UTC 2009


While I have not the least doubt about the positive way all

Cloudmade OSMF members DO contribute to OSM

and to free GEODATA for all, the mere fact that there seems to

be a conflict of interest between any OSMF board member

and any company has shown to be a time bomb 

under our successful cooperation.

 

Large organizations need strict rules, and need to obey its own rules.

And OSM is quickly becoming a large organization, and without

a decent structure will quickly desintegrate into a large battle of

stupid amateurs.

 

So I think that the things that have happened, showed the inexperience of

"our leaders"   with democracy and transparency.

Signing up a lot of members with a similar background a few hours

before elections gives a strong taste of manipulation, true or not,

 and those responsible for that should realize how much harm that

has done.

 

Essential democracy is not learned at school, and examples of

wrong-doing show up in the newspapers all day. If one does not

want to learn from that, well ultimately that will destroy

OSM as an international cooperative organization.

 

We all owe respect and do admire the energy and efforts

made by Steve and other Cloudmade employees in the past and today.

But those who founded OSM are not necessarily the best men to

sustain and manage future OSM.

 

Frederic has put the finger on a sore spot, and that hurts.

While he might have drawn his conclusions too quickly, or at least wrote 

them down too "agressively" is true.

 The reaction of Steve however, is even more aggressive and personal, and witnesses a

profound lack of diplomatic skills. Something we may demand from

the board's chairman.

 

 

Therefore I want to suggest the new board creates a number of

rules to guarantee transparency and decoupling of interests.

 

One of these rules MUST be that no (commercial) party will have more 

than 1 (voting) position  at the BOARD or any other official  part of OSM.

 

Other rules for example should guarantee that all OSM nations will be represented 

in the foundations board (not that every country needs a representative),

and that personal membership may not be extended more than 2 terms.

 

Just some suggestions in how to create confidence and transparency

in a democratic organization, that's what we are all looking for aren't we?

 

Let's get back to mapping and coding, and to the NEW board:

 

We all expect that your first task will be to make sure this never happens again.

 

Gert Gremmen

-----------------------------------------------------

 

Openstreetmap.nl  (alias: cetest)

P Before printing, think about the environment. 

 

 

Van: osmf-talk-bounces at openstreetmap.org [mailto:osmf-talk-bounces at openstreetmap.org] Namens Steven Feldman
Verzonden: Friday, August 21, 2009 8:31 AM
Aan: osmf-talk at openstreetmap.org
Onderwerp: Re: [Osmf-talk] Cloudmade and OSMF

 

Re signups.

I just wanted to mention that there were many non foundation people at SOTM and Nick was doing a great job as an ambassador for the OSMF encouraging people to join. I went home inspired by the conference and joined the foundation and have voted for those who impressed me both on the wiki and at the conference.

I have been following the Cloudmade bashing on this mail list for a while now and am surprised at it. Most open source projects need to find a symbiotic relationship with commercial companies if they are going to flourish. I think you underestimate the contribution that Steve and Nick have been able to make to OSM BECAUSE of their employment by Cloudmade.

Just for the record i don't work for Cloudmade, consult for them or have any axe to grind for them. But the guys deserve a fair crack of the whip and perhaps some respect for their contributions and energy.
-- 
Regards

Steven Feldman
KnowWhere Consulting

Mobile:     +44 (0)7958 924101
Web:        http://GIScussions.blogspot.com
Twitter: http://twitter.com/stevenfeldman



2009/8/20 <osmf-talk-request at openstreetmap.org>

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Today's Topics:

  1. Re: EVERYONE: PLEASE VOTE (Sergiy Drapiko)
  2. Re: EVERYONE: PLEASE VOTE (Andy Robinson (blackadder))
  3. Re: EVERYONE: PLEASE VOTE (David Earl)
  4. Re: EVERYONE: PLEASE VOTE (Andy Robinson (blackadder))
  5. Re: EVERYONE: PLEASE VOTE (Jens M?ller)
  6. Re: EVERYONE: PLEASE VOTE (Nick Black)


---------- Forwarded message ----------
From: Sergiy Drapiko <sdrapiko at cloudmade.com>
To: Grant Slater <openstreetmap at firefishy.com>
Date: Thu, 20 Aug 2009 14:42:45 +0300
Subject: Re: [Osmf-talk] EVERYONE: PLEASE VOTE
Grant,

While the initial comment was not particularly nice to Cloudmade (to say the least), you are pushing too far. As far as I am concerned, no one in Cloudmade have approached me with an offer to pay for my OSMF membership, let alone "order" me to register.

Also, 15 pounds a year is not a significant amount, so you can rest assured that the rest of Ukraine's OSM community are financially capable to join if they want to. Finding a credit card that works with PayPal over here IS a problem, but that's a TODO for OSMF, not Cloudmade's fault.

BR,
Sergiy

On Thu, Aug 20, 2009 at 1:56 PM, Grant Slater <openstreetmap at firefishy.com> wrote:

2009/8/20 Nick Black <nick at blacksworld.net>:

> No, I don't think it is cause for concern.  Neither do many of the other
> people who have replied to this thread.  I'll only briefly repeat myself:
> CloudMade staff are free to vote as they choose, just as everyone else in
> the community is.
>

The OSMF membership secretary investigating the membership spike from
one company is cause for concern alone.

CloudMade employees brought to OpenStreetMap exclusively by their
employment and their OSMF membership being paid via their boss does
not seem kosher to me. Let alone it seems unfair to the rest of the
OSM Community in Ukraine (and the rest of the world) who are unable to
have their voices heard by joining the OSMF.

/ Grant


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---------- Forwarded message ----------
From: "Andy Robinson \(blackadder\)" <blackadderajr at googlemail.com>
To: "'Peter Miller'" <peter.miller at itoworld.com>
Date: Thu, 20 Aug 2009 12:44:50 +0100
Subject: Re: [Osmf-talk] EVERYONE: PLEASE VOTE
Peter Miller wrote:
>Sent: 20 August 2009 12:37 PM
>To: Andy Robinson (blackadder)
>Cc: 'Nick Black'; osmf-talk at openstreetmap.org
>Subject: Re: [Osmf-talk] EVERYONE: PLEASE VOTE
>
>
>On 20 Aug 2009, at 12:16, Andy Robinson (blackadder) wrote:
>
>> Peter Miller wrote:
>>> Sent: 20 August 2009 12:06 PM
>>> To: Andy Robinson (blackadder)
>>> Cc: 'Nick Black'; osmf-talk at openstreetmap.org
>>> Subject: Re: [Osmf-talk] EVERYONE: PLEASE VOTE
>>>
>>>
>>> On 20 Aug 2009, at 11:50, Andy Robinson (blackadder) wrote:
>>>
>>>> Peter Miller wrote:
>>>>> Sent: 20 August 2009 11:13 AM
>>>>> To: Nick Black
>>>>> Cc: osmf-talk at openstreetmap.org
>>>>> Subject: Re: [Osmf-talk] EVERYONE: PLEASE VOTE
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> On 20 Aug 2009, at 11:05, Nick Black wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> Grant,
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I think that the OSM-F membership list should be available for
>>>>>> anyone
>>>>>> to request for their own personal use, in line with the UK
>>>>>> Companies
>>>>>> Act.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> My understanding and the understanding of the Board is that
>>>>>> because
>>>>>> the OSM-F is not Data Protection Act registered, we are tightly
>>>>>> constrained by what we can do with a membership list.  Until last
>>>>>> night I did not have access to the list.  We can only use it for
>>>>>> purposes of membership - sending membership reminders is about the
>>>>>> extent of the actions we can take.  I personally think this is sub
>>>>>> optimal, which is why I'm working with the other OSM-F Board
>>>>>> members
>>>>>> to get clarification on the DPA and other regulations.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I think the members should have access to the membership list and
>>>>>> the
>>>>>> information that can be inferred from it, but this has to be done
>>>>>> through the proper channels.
>>>>>
>>>>> The Foundation is legally required to register under the Data
>>>>> Protection Act 1998 and failure to do so is a criminal offence:-
>>>>> "Notification is a statutory requirement and every organisation
>>>>> that
>>>>> processes personal information must notify the Information
>>>>> Commissioner's Office (ICO), unless they are exempt. Failure to
>>>>> notify
>>>>> is a criminal offence.
>>>>
>>>> Ah, but you have not stated what the exemptions are. We know that we
>>>> do need
>>>> to register because of all the things we might need to be able to do
>>>> with
>>>> the wider OSM database (the OSM User data). The membership is a
>>>> different
>>>> matter and as Nick says, its not a requirement to notify for the
>>>> purposes of
>>>> managing an individual's membership as far as I am aware and thus
>>>> not
>>>> legally required on what we have used the data for to date, but
>>>> clearly it
>>>> is in our interests to do so for the future.
>>>
>>> A quick look at the exemptions does indeed appear to confirm that
>>> some
>>> basic stuff is allowed by not-for-profit organisations which may mean
>>> that all our directors do not 'go straight to jail' (apologies for
>>> suggesting that they might). I do hope however that we apply if we
>>> need to so that we can be transparent organisation that we all
>>> desire:-
>>
>> Luckily I was playing monopoly recently and have a "Get out of jail
>> free"
>> card left :-)
>>
>> +1 on the transparency and hence why notification and compliance to
>> permit
>> some use of personal data beyond the restrictions currently imposed
>> is being
>> actively evaluated and addressed.
>>
>
>Good news. It would of course be useful to have board meeting minutes
>available for meetings held since 14 April 2009 so that others can see
>what the board is working on and is not working on - most of us are
>working in the dark at present and can only guess.
>


Thanks for pointing that out. Correcting now.

Cheers
Andy






---------- Forwarded message ----------
From: David Earl <david at frankieandshadow.com>
To: "Andy Robinson (blackadder)" <blackadderajr at googlemail.com>
Date: Thu, 20 Aug 2009 12:45:27 +0100
Subject: Re: [Osmf-talk] EVERYONE: PLEASE VOTE
On 20/08/2009 12:16, Andy Robinson (blackadder) wrote:

	"Not-for-profit organisations

...

	 


Thanks, this is exactly the section we have been working under to date and
the reason why we can't just throw out lists of members and personal info ad
hoc.


I researched this for Cambridge Cycling Campaign some time ago (which though its legal status is different, also falls under this exemption). We produced the following, and require our committee members to sign a paper saying they have read and understood their obligations with respect to member's personal details regarding this policy:
http://www.camcycle.org.uk/about/dataprotection/

David





---------- Forwarded message ----------
From: "Andy Robinson \(blackadder\)" <blackadderajr at googlemail.com>
To: "'David Earl'" <david at frankieandshadow.com>
Date: Thu, 20 Aug 2009 12:46:38 +0100
Subject: Re: [Osmf-talk] EVERYONE: PLEASE VOTE
David Earl [mailto:david at frankieandshadow.com] wrote:
>Sent: 20 August 2009 12:45 PM
>To: Andy Robinson (blackadder)
>Cc: 'Peter Miller'; osmf-talk at openstreetmap.org
>Subject: Re: [Osmf-talk] EVERYONE: PLEASE VOTE
>
>On 20/08/2009 12:16, Andy Robinson (blackadder) wrote:
>>> "Not-for-profit organisations
>...
>>>
>>
>> Thanks, this is exactly the section we have been working under to date
>and
>> the reason why we can't just throw out lists of members and personal info
>ad
>> hoc.
>
>I researched this for Cambridge Cycling Campaign some time ago (which
>though its legal status is different, also falls under this exemption).
>We produced the following, and require our committee members to sign a
>paper saying they have read and understood their obligations with
>respect to member's personal details regarding this policy:
>http://www.camcycle.org.uk/about/dataprotection/
>
>David


That's useful.

Thanks David.

Andy





---------- Forwarded message ----------
From: "Jens Müller" <ich at tessarakt.de>
To: osmf-talk at openstreetmap.org
Date: Thu, 20 Aug 2009 13:51:34 +0200
Subject: Re: [Osmf-talk] EVERYONE: PLEASE VOTE
On 20.08.2009 13:42, Sergiy Drapiko wrote:
> Finding a credit card that works with PayPal over here IS a problem, but
> that's a TODO for OSMF, not Cloudmade's fault.

At the very least, OSMF should accept payments via another payment
processor, e.g., Google Checkout.

Cheers,

Jens




---------- Forwarded message ----------
From: Nick Black <nick at blacksworld.net>
To: 80n <80n80n at gmail.com>
Date: Thu, 20 Aug 2009 13:05:04 +0100
Subject: Re: [Osmf-talk] EVERYONE: PLEASE VOTE

 

On 20 Aug 2009, at 12:34, 80n wrote:





On Thu, Aug 20, 2009 at 8:42 AM, Jim Brown <jbrown at jwbsystems.com> wrote:

I have been encouraging everyone I know, who is interested in maps, to join OSM and the OSMF.  This includes friends, co workers and suppliers...  Over the last week or so a number of people have indicated to me that they could not join because of either the lack of a credit card (in a couple cases) or the inability to authorize a Ukrainian card in PayPal (in most cases).  I told them they could register with my card if needed and that I'd do the transaction for them.  I did the transaction in one go which is why the one day bump. 


PayPal is not the only method of payment.  The sign-up page makes it quite clear that there are other methods [1].

 

Yes, but most Ukrainian (and presumably many other) credit cards don't authorize through Paypal, as Jim said.  And a bank transfer would be #!£#$# :-)




There have been no enquiries from any CloudMade employee or associate in the past weeks asking about alternative ways of paying.

 

That could be because their first port of call was with their local OSM-F representative - me ;-)  Weren't you or Mike were contacted by one of the CloudMade managers in Kyiv who's credit card had worked to check about registrations earlier this week - that's what you told me yesterday?






The sign-up curve is a smoking gun that indicates a coordinated or directed campaign. 

 

Or just indicates that amongst the numerous people I have encouraged to join the Foundation and vote over the last month or so, there is one homogenous group that is easily identifiable.  I've probably also encouraged another  10-15 people to sign up to the OSM-Foundation - but they are not easily identifiable and so are not part of the question.  





There is nothing illegitimate about such a campaign but it carries the appearance to many people of not acting in good faith.

 

Not to everyone, in fact, most people on this list and many that have contacted me offlist are not questioning the whether we were acting in good faith or not.  Most people assume that we were and accept that timing was not optimal, but was a side effect of the difficulty with payments.

 

--

Nick






Etienne

[1] http://foundation.openstreetmap.org/join/

 

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--

Nick Black

twitter.com/nick_b

nick at blacksworld.net

 

 

 

 


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