[Osmf-talk] logo update

Mikel Maron mikel_maron at yahoo.com
Mon Dec 19 23:02:32 UTC 2011


Who's talking about dumbing down? By that logic, maybe we should make the website harder to use, so only people who are smarter (or maybe more masochistic) can take part? Do you also disagree with the human readable summary of the ODbL? 

Your critique is batting at phantoms. No one wants a dumb site, but a smart site. Right now, OSM is designed dumbly. And I can say that, cause I helped design it 6 years ago. Maybe wait to see what we're actually talking about, rather than assuming the worst.

Look there's many *smart* people out there who don't get OSM. They aren't "mass market", but in all sorts of niches. Geez, some of them are map geeks who just need a little help up the learning curve. There are lots of ways to interact with maps, not everyone is going to use Potlatch or JOSM, but might report a problem on their phone ... we need that to be a significant map. Yes, some are using GMM right now ... and I'm pretty sure most of those folks are nerds too. There's no reason to look down on them, that's a typical ultra-geek attitude. It's just as bad as how GIS paleotards looked at OSM when it started -- oh aren't they cute, but they don't get it. I'm sick of the superior attitude. When did OSM get to be about a chosen few? It's exactly the opposite!

So you prefer the OSMF doesn't do this? Ok, noted. But guess what, I want OSMF to make the site better. IMO, OSMF is in the right position to get the redesign happening. 
 
== Mikel Maron ==
+14152835207 @mikel s:mikelmaron


>________________________________
> From: Frederik Ramm <frederik at remote.org>
>To: osmf-talk at openstreetmap.org 
>Sent: Monday, December 19, 2011 5:03 PM
>Subject: Re: [Osmf-talk] logo update
> 
>Hi,
>
>On 12/19/2011 09:15 PM, Matt Amos wrote:
>> i think the point that frederik was trying to make is that changing
>> the site to not advertise the freedoms, diversity and community that
>> we all value in OSM would be to lose something special.
>
>I reacted in the way I did because I had the impression that not only was there a tendendcy to not advertise these factors (and instead try well-trodden mass-market compatible marketing messages like "it's fun to be in OSM") - no, people who care for these things are increasingly cast as "ultra map geeks" or something, and pushed to the sidelines. (Think "They're holding the project back!!!!")
>
>The thinking seems to be that "they may have got us where we are but now we must look <buzzword>look forward</buzzword> and <buzzword>take things to the next level</buzzword> and we cannot allow ourselves to be held back by that tiny minority who would make our web site run on command line switches if one let them".
>
>Steve talks as if those ~ 20k human beings in the world who are in between themselves responsible for 99% of what OSM has achieved are a liability, "ultra map geeks" to whom we're grateful for what they did but could they now please make room for those who don't know or care what "free and open" means because we need to suck up to the masses if we want to be successful.
>
>My main point is: Just because the average Google Maps user, or whatever target audience Steve has in mind, does not understand a concept, that is *not* reason enough to play it down.
>
>I am perfectly happy to have, in OSM, only users and participants who actually understand "free and open" & that you get the raw data and for whom this is important. I won't - and that is something Dermot mentioned - try to hold back others who want to make OSM palatable to different crowds, but I would prefer if those others were different from OSM(F). Anyone can take our data and try to make something interesting for the masses from it (take e.g. MapQuest).
>
>But if people come to openstreetmap.org, then I want things to be clear. No hand-wavy dumbed-down web 2.0 "welcome to this fun web site where you can do cool stuff easily!" message but a clear and concise "We're a free and open collaborative mapping platform in which anyone can edit the map. All our data is available for download."
>
>And I see a danger of these things getting lost in an almost fanatic desire to cater to non-geeks.
>
>There may well be a way to open the project up to more and more participants from all walks of life without dumbing it down to a "fun activity for your spare time".
>
>If my messages help to steer the project towards one of those ways then they have not been written in vain.
>
>Bye
>Frederik
>
>PS: Even if we were not to open up to the masses, we're a long way from having exhausted this world's reserve of ultra map geeks. Those who won't contribute to GMM because it's not free and open.
>
>-- Frederik Ramm  ##  eMail frederik at remote.org  ##  N49°00'09" E008°23'33"
>
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