[Osmf-talk] About HOT US Inc "specific" culture at work in Dale Kunce's emails and why it has to be mitigated at OSMF in 2017 [was Fwd: May 2017 use of Code Of Conduct (CoC) for Membership control in HOT US Inc internal governance]

nicolas chavent nicolas.chavent at gmail.com
Mon Dec 4 13:59:45 UTC 2017

Hi all,

I took the time to think through Dale Kunce below emails.
I decided to reply remaining focused on this OSMF vote and ended up writing
a longer email than I initially meant to. It's an attempt to describe the
HOT US Inc "specific" culture revealed by these emails
It forms a *cultural* reason to limit HOT US Inc presence at the OSMF
Board, which adds to specific (CoC complaint handling) or principle
This email, posted earlier in the morning, is too long for the osmf mailing
list and got blocked, I just realized this and will have to share it
via an online
[1]. That's not an ideal solution and I apologize in advance for this, but
I hope that it will nevertheless make its way through this list and help
inform the vote.

Excellent day,


---------- Forwarded message ----------
From: Dale Kunce <dale.kunce at gmail.com>
Date: Fri, Dec 1, 2017 at 11:00 PM
Subject: Re: [Osmf-talk] May 2017 use of Code Of Conduct (CoC) for
Membership control in HOT US Inc internal governance
To: Michelle Steigerwalt <msteigerwalt at gmail.com>
Cc: nicolas chavent <nicolas.chavent at gmail.com>, osmf-talk at openstreetmap.org

Both great points.
I have no problem with convincing the community to move in another
direction if done in a civil way. Unfortunately, Nico did harass members
after several private and written warnings. The fact that he has
continually brought the issue here shows how much he does not respect HOT
and civility. As Mikel said earlier the HOT community welcomes all internal
conversations and debates. We have elections and a board to help settle
these issues. What we do not welcome are lies, name calling, and
non-positive communication.

I agree that simply asking rude members to go away is not good for the
community. We struggled for years with the issue, finding the right amount
of debate and conversation. Trust me when I say that we've heard these
issues out before. We had many votes and board elections. All of which
illustrated Nico's, ability to lie, disregard facts, and be hurtful to
other members of the community. The membership and the board chose to go in
a direction that Nico disagrees with that he will never agree with. Our
membership is now much more civil and the tone of our conversations is
positive. We do not continually chase him around OSM forums to disparage
his name as he has done to Heather and other HOT members here, even though
I would have facts on my side. We are trying to move on.

I'm not a frequent poster to this email list or any list for that matter.
But the time has come for enough to be enough and call out the bully for
who and what he is.

On Fri, Dec 1, 2017 at 4:16 PM, Dale Kunce <dale.kunce at gmail.com> wrote:

> Nico,
> I'm responding here but please consider this a response to all of your
> posts on multiple threads.
> You and Sev bullied the HOT community for years, now subjecting others to
> the same bullying all to try and settle old scores. It needs to stop. The
> HOT community suffered from these types of posts and false accusations for
> years and collectively decided you are wrong. Your vitriol and constant
> accusations are devoid of fact, were and are detrimental to the positive
> community we are focused on modeling and building. Yes, you've been subject
> to Code of Conduct violations in the past, with reason. Not because HOT has
> some anti-democratic bent but because you were rude, lied, violated
> confidentially and conflict of interest policies, and sought to split the
> HOT community.
> Sev continually violated his legal obligations as a HOT Board. No one
> incident lead to his removal but a pattern of repeated violations of his
> legal obligations as a board member, which put HOT in legal risk. I won't
> go into detail because I'm under legal obligation not to as a member of
> that board. I was on the board and voted to for his removal, it was one of
> the hardest things I've had to do in HOT. Following our bylaws, we asked
> the membership to vote for his dismissal. The reasons presented to the
> membership at that time was sufficient that a 2/3 majority voted to remove
> him.
> HOT is a better place now that these types of things don't happen. They
> don't happen anymore because we enforce our Code of Conduct. Creating a
> safe place and kicking out the bullies is hard work. It took HOT years to
> recognize the cause of our internal animosity and to work on ways to build
> a more inclusive collaborative community. We did this through the creation
> of Community and Governance Working Groups (open to all members). We
> developed mechanisms, approved by the membership, to help make our
> conversations more productive. This is the HOT Code of Conduct
> <https://www.hotosm.org/hot_code_of_conduct>. Nothing here is offensive,
> nothing here should cause you to not discuss an issue, or speak your mind.
> There are positive ways to talk with and respect one another and still have
> disagreements. You've shown repeatedly that you cannot, thus the code of
> conduct violations.
> I'm sad to see that the old wounds, slights, and arguments from HOTs past
> continue to be resurrected every year by the same few. I wish and hope that
> we could focus on the future of OSM instead of continually looking backward
> at the same arguments from the same people.
> Dale

Nicolas Chavent
Les Libres Géographes
Projet OpenStreetMap (OSM)
Projet Espace OSM Francophone (EOF)
Projet GeOrchestra
Mobile (FR): +33 (0)6 52 40 78 20
Mobile (Bénin): +22962 55 85 91
Email: nicolas.chavent at gmail.com
Skype: c_nicolas
Twitter: nicolas_chavent
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