[Osmf-talk] Dale Kunce (OSM, OSMF and HOT US Inc president) on [OSMF] mailing list: "a viper pit of racism and misogyny"; a statement which minimally calls for answers and facts

Ilya Zverev ilya at zverev.info
Wed Dec 20 09:30:38 UTC 2017

19 дек. 2017 г., в 22:06, Christoph Hormann <chris_hormann at gmx.de> написал(а):
> On Tuesday 19 December 2017, Ben Abelshausen wrote:
>> It hurts when people tweet this kind of stuff, I follow Frederik's
>> sentiment. I have responded on twitter a couple of times when this
>> happens. But how we respond to this has to be different from what
>> we've done up until now:
>> "It's not true, there isn't a problem, and let's do nothing!"
>> This reaction is normal, [...]
> No, it is not and since no one here said anything like that implying 
> people do and that it is normal to do so is demeaning.
> If anyone comes up here with specific critique on the way people 
> communicate and treat other people and does so respectfully and in a 
> tolerant way, supports this critique with solid arguments and most 
> importantly is open to the possibility of being wrong about it, i will 
> be the first to defend them against voices who deny this needs careful 
> consideration.  But that is not the case here.

I wholeheartedly agree with Ben, although it is dangerous to write such things here: you'll get shouted at (not the right term, sorry, but I'm not that skillful in English) by reasonable and well-meaning residents of mailing lists. I see that many people consider mailing lists frustrating and unpleasant. That is not because of a few specific messages breaking some specific rules nicely summarised with bullet points. But instead, because of the atmosphere of elitism and disrespect.

For example, let's take the recent discussion in imports at . A VP of a company subscribes and posts about a Walmart import, 4600 points, with no licensing issues, good tagging and nicely visualized. Next comes Ian and thanks him for the work in preparing the import. Normal? Yes for the american community, I guess.

But not for OSM: it's unheard of, that an import discussion starts with a grateful words, and not criticism. It is so uncommon in our community, that Frederik immediately replied with sarcasm (which imo should be one of reasons for instaban), accusing him of being somehow affiliated, and tried hard to find as much flaws in the import as possible. So that Damian doesn't feel by mistake welcomed.

That is not a single instance of unfriendliness. It's just a way our community works.

Another example, few years ago I proposed to add a "thanks" button to changesets and a comment field for any questions. Only the latter part was implemented, because in OSM, you get no thanks, only questions.

I doubt CoC would solve this in an instant, but it would be a great first step. The thing is, without enforcing, CoC means nothing. In the Russian forum it took almost a dozen temporary bans over half a year to restore a polite and respectful environment. I wonder if it is possible here.


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