[Osmf-talk] Dale Kunce (OSM, OSMF and HOT US Inc president) on [OSMF] mailing list: "a viper pit of racism and misogyny"; a statement which minimally calls for answers and facts
ilya at zverev.info
Wed Dec 20 10:18:46 UTC 2017
Thanks Simon. Yes, technically you are correct, it's just business and another day in OSM, and Frederik tried to help make the map better by smoothing any issues with the import. That doesn't explain sarcasm though.
And yes, I have been consulting the company. Which means, helping with choosing tags for their objects and preparing the visualisation. I especially asked them to post to the imports@ themselves, so they do this import without my involvement from start to finish. Well, and now in the process they've learned how it feels.
This is the discussion about behaving in the community, not about the specific import. The case I outlined is just most recent of many. Learning to spot these is not easy: two years ago I'd be with you and others in this list, dismissing any issues.
> 20 дек. 2017 г., в 13:04, Simon Poole <simon at poole.ch> написал(а):
> Ilya in the name of transparency and declarations of interests, you
> should point out that this is a SEO company on contract by Walmart that
> you've been consulting and that you've been actively involved in
> preparing the data for import (Frederik just made a few suggestions for
> improvements, extremely difficult to get upset about that).
> Am 20.12.2017 um 10:30 schrieb Ilya Zverev:
>> 19 дек. 2017 г., в 22:06, Christoph Hormann <chris_hormann at gmx.de> написал(а):
>>> On Tuesday 19 December 2017, Ben Abelshausen wrote:
>>>> It hurts when people tweet this kind of stuff, I follow Frederik's
>>>> sentiment. I have responded on twitter a couple of times when this
>>>> happens. But how we respond to this has to be different from what
>>>> we've done up until now:
>>>> "It's not true, there isn't a problem, and let's do nothing!"
>>>> This reaction is normal, [...]
>>> No, it is not and since no one here said anything like that implying
>>> people do and that it is normal to do so is demeaning.
>>> If anyone comes up here with specific critique on the way people
>>> communicate and treat other people and does so respectfully and in a
>>> tolerant way, supports this critique with solid arguments and most
>>> importantly is open to the possibility of being wrong about it, i will
>>> be the first to defend them against voices who deny this needs careful
>>> consideration. But that is not the case here.
>> I wholeheartedly agree with Ben, although it is dangerous to write such things here: you'll get shouted at (not the right term, sorry, but I'm not that skillful in English) by reasonable and well-meaning residents of mailing lists. I see that many people consider mailing lists frustrating and unpleasant. That is not because of a few specific messages breaking some specific rules nicely summarised with bullet points. But instead, because of the atmosphere of elitism and disrespect.
>> For example, let's take the recent discussion in imports at . A VP of a company subscribes and posts about a Walmart import, 4600 points, with no licensing issues, good tagging and nicely visualized. Next comes Ian and thanks him for the work in preparing the import. Normal? Yes for the american community, I guess.
>> But not for OSM: it's unheard of, that an import discussion starts with a grateful words, and not criticism. It is so uncommon in our community, that Frederik immediately replied with sarcasm (which imo should be one of reasons for instaban), accusing him of being somehow affiliated, and tried hard to find as much flaws in the import as possible. So that Damian doesn't feel by mistake welcomed.
>> That is not a single instance of unfriendliness. It's just a way our community works.
>> Another example, few years ago I proposed to add a "thanks" button to changesets and a comment field for any questions. Only the latter part was implemented, because in OSM, you get no thanks, only questions.
>> I doubt CoC would solve this in an instant, but it would be a great first step. The thing is, without enforcing, CoC means nothing. In the Russian forum it took almost a dozen temporary bans over half a year to restore a polite and respectful environment. I wonder if it is possible here.
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