[Osmf-talk] Fwd: Candidacy: OSMF Board

Ben Abelshausen ben.abelshausen at gmail.com
Fri Nov 24 11:56:00 UTC 2017


If it truly is the case that only those related to HOT are speaking out
against this kind of behaviour then I think the OSMF has big problems with
how it treats it's members.

I haven't checked who is a member where so I don't know. Why is that even
the issue? The only thing I was saying is that this kind of way of treating
others is a step too far. What does my membership anywhere else have to do
with any of this?

And yes a lot of OSMF members are also HOT members but instead of treating
this as the problem why not look at why are there not more regular mappers
involved in the OSMF. That's the core issue.

Following the calls of some people to have more mappers join the OSMF we've
been promoting the idea in OSM Belgium and least a few have signed up. If
everyone can just do that HOTties will soon be minority, wouldn't that be

Then we can finally but this issue where it belongs, in the past...


On 24 Nov 2017 12:19 pm, "Christoph Hormann" <chris_hormann at gmx.de> wrote:

On Friday 24 November 2017, Kate Chapman wrote:
> I'm curious as to what it means to be HOT affiliated from the
> outside. I resigned from HOT staff 2 and a half years ago. Since then
> I have only been a voting member, I don't volunteer for HOT and I'd
> consider resigning if then I somehow didn't count as close to HOT. I
> somehow doubt that would change the view though.

I am glad you ask and not - like many other HOT members seem to do -
take it as granted that it cannot mean anything.

For me and according to my observation HOT members (and sometimes HOT
volunteers working a lot with HOT who are not a member) often seem to
have a fairly distinct cultural background that manifests in their
reactions in conversations and that often differs significantly from
other normal 'mapping their home town' mappers.

This is kind of similar to the specific views and more or less subtle
differences in communication style you can observe in OSM community
members with a strong Wikipedia background.

I don't know enough about how HOT works practically to analyze this in
more depth but my working theory is that when you spend a lot of time
on a project like HOT or Wikipedia you pick up on certain things in
terms of communication style and problem solving approaches and if
you - afterwards or in parallel - get active on OSM you tend to
unconsciously transfer these experiences.

Now there is nothing wrong with that in principle - it is not different
from the behavioural particularities everyone has because of their
individual background and as a culturally diverse community we should
welcome and accept all of this.  But as Stefan said it needs to be
balanced in intensity.  OSM has over the years developed its own
distinct cultural traits in terms of style of communication, problem
solving methods and other things.  Changing and developing these should
happen from the inside - welcoming outside ideas where they are deemed
useful and steadfast in matters where we can be rightfully proud of our
culture.  And not with the native culture being displaced by singular
dominant external influence.

If i am right about this you resigning from HOT membership would indeed
not change anything - even if it would be a visible statement of
course.  I don't think many people would brand you as a 'HOT-gal'
forever if they see you engage with the local and global OSM community
as one of them.

You should probably keep in mind that for someone new to OSM it usually
takes several years to become a true OSM native so-to-speak.  I started
contributing to OSM in 2013, joined the OSMF in 2015 and i still pretty
much feel like an outsider in many things.

Me pointing out who is a HOT member in this discussion by the way is not
because i keep track of this and have a HOT label on those who are a
HOT member.  I just wondered about the strong and kind of uniform
reaction of a larger number of people and on a hunch i looked up the
participants in the discussion on the HOT membership list.

> I'm curious as to why people think joining a membership where you
> just pay your fees and become a member is somehow better than first
> showing commitment to an organization in the first place.

It is not my place to judge how HOT organizes itself and as i have said
before i find the payment hurdle of the OSMF membership to be a
significant issue regarding democratic representation but in terms of
openness and transparency there seems to be a huge difference to a
closed membership where existing members have to deem you worthy to be
accepted into the inner circle.

Consequently this also means i am highly critical of the membership fee
waiver idea which is kind of a light version of the HOT membership
concept (existing members have to deem you worthy to be granted a

Christoph Hormann

osmf-talk mailing list
osmf-talk at openstreetmap.org
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.openstreetmap.org/pipermail/osmf-talk/attachments/20171124/437cb71b/attachment.html>

More information about the osmf-talk mailing list