[Osmf-talk] Balancing the presence of the Humanitarian OpenStreetMap Team at the OSM Foundation in 2017

Simon Poole simon at poole.ch
Thu Nov 30 11:37:29 UTC 2017

Am 30.11.2017 um 01:08 schrieb Dale Kunce:
> ...
> One thing I think about a lot when the conversation of HOT being
> somehow separate from OSM is what would the map look like. What would
> happen if all of edits ever made by HOT were reverted overnight?
You are conflating edits claimed by HOT Inc (essentially anything that
remotely was made in the context of HOT Inc going in to panic mode,
which is all the time), with actual edits made by Hot Inc members and
staff, I think we could easily survive reverting the later (that is not
saying that it would be a good idea).  In general I find the marketing
trick of trying to count everybody that ever edited in the context of a
task on the HOT Inc tasking server, as a HOT Inc supporter as rather
tasteless, for example it includes myself (yes and my edits are good and
should remain :-)).

To be clear the discussion here is not about people that have edited in
the context of HOT (note the missing Inc) gaining more influence, it is
about a small self-selected, near sectarian group getting more
influence, those organised in HOT Inc.

> What would the map look like if all of the technology created by HOT
> to do its humanitarian mission and help the OSM community didn't exist?
What if HOT Inc had added task manager functionality to the rails port?
Now that would have really been helpful.

What if HOT Inc would support building on and improving the tools that
already existed instead of re-inventing the wheel essentially every
time? (Yes I know the background is that is easier to sell and has the
benefit of funnelling money specifically to friendly orgs and companies)

What if HOT Inc would support a contribution model that didn't require
everything to be done twice and validators were free to actually map the
important things well the first time?

What if HOT Inc wouldn't promote the "building geometry" cult?

> My answer to the above is the map would not be better, we as an OSM
> community would not be better off. The same questions could be asked
> of any larger sub-group within OSM and the the answers would be the
> same. We are better off with the collective experience and skills of
> everyone on the project.
> Lastly, I would hazard to say that most HOT mappers view themselves as
> OSM mappers that happen to do humanitarian mapping more than the other
> way around.

What if HOT Inc. would stop pretending that they are morally better
people and are "mapping for good", contrary to the other lesser beings?

In my book all contributions to OSM are "humanitarian".

> Simon,
> Understood. I'd be curious if we could figure out a way to
> measure/track both (OSMF membership and OSM as a whole). Especially
> guessing that both metrics are probably out of whack and not
> representative as the world as a whole.
> On Wed, Nov 29, 2017 at 3:32 PM, Simon Poole <simon at poole.ch
> <mailto:simon at poole.ch>> wrote:
>     Am 29.11.2017 um 21:57 schrieb Dale Kunce:
>>     Lots of people here have expressed an interest in having
>>     geographic diversity on the board. Maybe this is cart before the
>>     horse. I'm curious what the metrics are behind the actual
>>     membership is made up of. I know that we don't have demographic
>>     data for OSMF members but do we have at least a country or
>>     regional breakdown. Maybe the first step is to start actively
>>     recruiting more OSMF members in under represented areas.
>     Just so that words don't get put in my mouth: I was referring to
>     "our overall community" not the OSMF membership which may, or may
>     not show a similar distribution as actual mappers (we simple don't
>     know). Depending on ones stance, that  may or may not be desirable.
>     Simon
>     PS:
>     https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/w/images/f/fa/Continental_distribution_2016.png
>     <https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/w/images/f/fa/Continental_distribution_2016.png>
>>     Dale
>>     On Wed, Nov 29, 2017 at 10:59 AM, Simon Poole <simon at poole.ch
>>     <mailto:simon at poole.ch>> wrote:
>>         Am 29.11.2017 um 19:45 schrieb Rihards:
>>         > On 2017.11.29. 20 <tel:2017.11.29.%2020>:41, john whelan wrote:
>>         >> The other part of perception is HOT is inc in the USA. 
>>         Donald's recent
>>         >> tweets may not reflect HOT's views but the association
>>         maybe drawn by some.
>>         > if i got the reference right, that's an extremely long
>>         stretch that i do
>>         > not agree with, but acknowledge that it might be noticed by
>>         somebody.
>>         I don't think that anybody particularly associates Trump with
>>         the US
>>         board members :-). There is naturally an issue. that
>>         particularly if you
>>         believe that the board should be a representative body (not
>>         necessarily
>>         a believe I hold) there has been a long time
>>         over-representation of
>>         North America, mainly at the expense of Asia and developing
>>         countries.
>>         But that is just one of many imbalances relative to the make
>>         up of our
>>         overall community.
>>         Simon
>>         >
>>         >> Cheerio John
>>         >>
>>         >> On 29 November 2017 at 13:29, Rihards <richlv at nakts.net
>>         <mailto:richlv at nakts.net>
>>         >> <mailto:richlv at nakts.net <mailto:richlv at nakts.net>>> wrote:
>>         >>
>>         >>     On 2017.11.29. 20 <tel:2017.11.29.%2020>
>>         <tel:2017.11.29.%2020> <tel:2017.11.29.%2020>:21, Martijn van
>>         Exel wrote:
>>         >>     >> On Nov 29, 2017, at 10:02 AM, Christoph Hormann
>>         <chris_hormann at gmx.de <mailto:chris_hormann at gmx.de>
>>         <mailto:chris_hormann at gmx.de <mailto:chris_hormann at gmx.de>>>
>>         wrote:
>>         >>     >>
>>         >>     >> On Wednesday 29 November 2017, Martijn van Exel wrote:
>>         >>     >>> [...] Merely
>>         >>     >>> having an affiliation DOES NOT represent a
>>         conflict of interest. A
>>         >>     >>> conflict of interest only arises when a topic is
>>         being addressed
>>         >>     >>> where a board member has an interest in the topic
>>         stemming from their
>>         >>     >>> outside affiliation that may not align with the
>>         interest of OSMF.
>>         >>     >>
>>         >>     >> I am no expert on conflicts of interests but i
>>         think this is not quite
>>         >>     >> correct.  As i understand it a conflict of interest
>>         exists based on the
>>         >>     >> possibility of an undue influence of a secondary
>>         interest, not just if
>>         >>     >> such an influence is actually exercised in a
>>         meaningful way.
>>         >>     >>
>>         >>     >> My understanding is that even if you know/believe
>>         your secondary
>>         >>     >> interests (for example as a Telenav employee) align
>>         perfectly with the
>>         >>     >> interests of the OSMF on a certain matter or even
>>         if you intend to act
>>         >>     >> against these secondary interests you would still
>>         have to recuse
>>         >>     >> yourself from participation in a decision making
>>         process on matters
>>         >>     >> where your employer has an interest in due to the
>>         possibility that
>>         >>     >> these interests do not align perfectly and you
>>         might put these
>>         >>     >> interests above your obligation as a board member.
>>         >>     >
>>         >>     > Correct, but there still needs to be a situation to
>>         give rise to a conflict of interest, as the Companies Act
>>         states clearly. Merely having an affiliation does not
>>         constitute a conflict of interest in and of itself.
>>         >>
>>         >>     the biggest problem seems to be not a legal one, but
>>         more of the
>>         >>     perception, the image. harsh reaction and bringing up
>>         the companies act
>>         >>     might do the opposite - convince the concerned that
>>         their concerns have
>>         >>     been valid and things are "legally clean but ugly".
>>         >>
>>         >>     personally, i trust the HOT members in osmf, but i am
>>         concerned with the
>>         >>     perception angle. as an example, what if all osmf
>>         board members were
>>         >>     from HOT, would it make the concern more clear ?
>>         >>
>>         >>     this might be a slight difference between the eu/usa
>>         viewpoints (sorry
>>         >>     to other regions, i'm less familiar with the cultural
>>         nuances there).
>>         >>     european contributors sometimes view usa as a very
>>         corporate-centered
>>         >>     place with little grassroots activity and
>>         volunteering, and HOT has been
>>         >>     run more as a company, less as a community.
>>         >>
>>         >>     the suggestion regarding the working groups was very
>>         interesting. if the
>>         >>     HOT members who are on or are running for the board
>>         would explain why
>>         >>     they are aiming for the board instead of contributing
>>         at the working
>>         >>     groups (where they might even be able to have a bigger
>>         impact), that
>>         >>     might help to reduce the concerns that have been
>>         expressed here and
>>         >>     elsewhere.
>>         >>
>>         >>     > I think I caused confusion where I stated that the
>>         board has been able to self-regulate this. This may have
>>         implied that we rely on each other to call each other out on
>>         potential CoI. This is not the case, I trust my fellow board
>>         members to disclose when needed, and this has happened on a
>>         few occasions.
>>         >>     >
>>         >>     > Martijn
>>         _______________________________________________
>>         osmf-talk mailing list
>>         osmf-talk at openstreetmap.org <mailto:osmf-talk at openstreetmap.org>
>>         https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/osmf-talk
>>         <https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/osmf-talk>
>>     -- 
>>     sent from my mobile device
>>     Dale Kunce
>>     http://normalhabit.com
> -- 
> sent from my mobile device
> Dale Kunce
> http://normalhabit.com

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