[Osmf-talk] Commitment to open communication channels

Mateusz Konieczny matkoniecz at tutanota.com
Wed Aug 19 04:28:46 UTC 2020


Part of that is kind of hard to avoid - my knowledge about cultural norms is limited,
but AFAIK 

(1) in some cultures saying "no" to proposal means "you are stupid, worthless,
and so below my status that I can openly reject your ideas" and to reject
proposal you praise it weakly and not very effectively

(2) in some cultures saying "no" to proposal means that you disagree with a 
proposal and praising proposal weakly means that you agree with it and support it

As result discussion where (2) mode dominates will be considered offensive
to people from (1) culture and it is kind of hard to fix that (assuming that such disconnect
actually exists, see initial disclaimer).

I have seen claims describing it as USA vs Germany conflict with USA being closer to (1)
and Germany being closer to (2).

For bonus points people using English as a secondary language struggle with just using
English and will blunder into things that are sadly more offensive than needed 
(nowadays very dangerous trap is she/he confusion that is tricky for at least some
people and in unlucky situation innocent mistake may be considered as extremely offensive)

For additional bonus points there is an additional problem of some people 
(I have not noticed it here - maliciously exploiting)
 "I am not a native speaker, this insults were completely not intended".

Is it about such cultural issues (mismatch between expectations, sometimes unavoidable)?

Is problem about communicating rejection something actually existing? If yes I can dig for
link explaining it a bit more (I want to verify is it misleading before linking it).

Is anyone aware about description of such cultural issues and maybe how to avoid some
traps?

Aug 19, 2020, 02:54 by allan at mustard.net:

>
> Not to pile on, but in        my conversations with local communities, more than a few said        they avoid the talk lists because of the incivility and        rudeness.  What constitutes obnoxious behavior varies by        culture, and insensitivity to what another culture considers        rude drives members of that culture away.  OSM allows this to        happen at its peril, since OSM strives to be a "map of the        world".
>
>
> Or to be more blunt,        what is inoffensive and merely clever, sarcastic repartee to a        western European may be highly offensive to an Asian, African,        or Latin American, who will then bail out and not participate in        that comms channel.
>
>
> If you want proof of        that, contact the local communities and ask them yourself.
>
>
> cheers,
>  apm
> On 8/18/2020 3:22 PM, Michal Migurski      wrote:
>
>>> On Aug 18, 2020, at 11:45 AM, Kathleen Lu via            osmf-talk <>>> osmf-talk at openstreetmap.org>>> >            wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>> I believe it is as safe as any other channel and abuse                  is very rare.
>>>>  Try to find 2 examples from this year of non                  acceptable communication, and if you cannot, let’s                  reflect how “toxic” this list really is. From my                  perception, people spreading the myth of toxicity on                  OpenStreetMap mailing lists are behaving more                  toxically than all the communications I have seen on                  various OpenStreetMap mailing lists in 12 years.                  Disclaimer: I am not on talk-us, maybe this list is an                  exception I am not aware of.
>>>>  I do recall two events of unpleasant communication, in                  both cases I believe that personal discourses from 
>>>>  the real life had moved to the lists (one was on the                  diversity list, the other was a flame against you                  before the elections I think 2 years ago).
>>>>  
>>>>
>>>
>>> Martin, don't you think it would only                  increase the toxicity on this list for people to start                  calling out by name other people that they think are                  toxic or abusive? And if people already don't feel                  safe on this list, why in the world would they feel                  safe publicly calling out others' behaviors? I am not                  saying this is your intent, but your challenge could                  serve as a self-fulfilling prophecy: Tell people that                  they will not be believed, and they will be unlikely                  to speak up, and then you'll have your "proof" that                  there is no toxicity.
>>> I will say that at least three people (a                    mix of genders) have personally told me that they do                    not participate in/read the talk listserv because of                    the culture, and this is not exactly something that                    comes up in every conversation I have about OSM.
>>> We can all have different opinions on what                  qualifies as "toxic", but I think that I would prefer                  "welcoming" to "not that toxic that often," which is                  what it sounds like you are describing as the standard                  for "any other channel." I think that is too low of a                  bar and that OSM should aim for better.
>>>
>>
>> I agree with this viewpoint.
>>
>> Asking people to prove instances of toxicity is not a helpful        way to engage this topic. I’d like to re-surface Ivan Gayton’s        excellent points on this topic from late last year, on OSM        diaries:
>>
>>
>>> “I have failed to notice any          outrageous problems” does not come off exactly like an          invitation to share the problems, it’s more of a challenge,          implicitly saying “prove it,” putting the onus on the person          experiencing the hostility to demonstrate that they are not          imagining it. A lot of people, rather than investing in this,          will simply find another place to put their energy where they          are not required to endure hostility or prove its existence in          the face of skepticism.
>>>  
>>>  It might be instructive to re-read that mailing list while          specifically keeping in mind the potential experience of, say,          a female participant.
>>>  
>>>  Better yet, if you want to discover whether women (or people          of color, or LGTBQ people, or people from low-income          countries, or other folks less represented in global wealth          and power) are experiencing hostility, a good way to do so is          to ask them. As opposed to asking them to prove it.
>>>
>>
>> – >> https://www.openstreetmap.org/user/Heather%20Leson/diary/391598#comment46229
>>
>> A recent Ford & Sloan Foundation report on          open source communities (>> https://recommendations.implicit-development.org>> )          repeatedly emphasizes the point that understanding a          community’s dynamic requires active outreach to *people who’ve          chosen to leave*. Looking to just the hardy extremophiles          content to stick around will not tell enough of the story.
>>
>> -mike.
>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________osmf-talk mailing list>> osmf-talk at openstreetmap.org>> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/osmf-talk
>>

-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.openstreetmap.org/pipermail/osmf-talk/attachments/20200819/482d60f4/attachment.htm>


More information about the osmf-talk mailing list