[Osmf-talk] Commitment to open communication channels
Mateusz Konieczny
matkoniecz at tutanota.com
Wed Aug 19 04:28:46 UTC 2020
Part of that is kind of hard to avoid - my knowledge about cultural norms is limited,
but AFAIK
(1) in some cultures saying "no" to proposal means "you are stupid, worthless,
and so below my status that I can openly reject your ideas" and to reject
proposal you praise it weakly and not very effectively
(2) in some cultures saying "no" to proposal means that you disagree with a
proposal and praising proposal weakly means that you agree with it and support it
As result discussion where (2) mode dominates will be considered offensive
to people from (1) culture and it is kind of hard to fix that (assuming that such disconnect
actually exists, see initial disclaimer).
I have seen claims describing it as USA vs Germany conflict with USA being closer to (1)
and Germany being closer to (2).
For bonus points people using English as a secondary language struggle with just using
English and will blunder into things that are sadly more offensive than needed
(nowadays very dangerous trap is she/he confusion that is tricky for at least some
people and in unlucky situation innocent mistake may be considered as extremely offensive)
For additional bonus points there is an additional problem of some people
(I have not noticed it here - maliciously exploiting)
"I am not a native speaker, this insults were completely not intended".
Is it about such cultural issues (mismatch between expectations, sometimes unavoidable)?
Is problem about communicating rejection something actually existing? If yes I can dig for
link explaining it a bit more (I want to verify is it misleading before linking it).
Is anyone aware about description of such cultural issues and maybe how to avoid some
traps?
Aug 19, 2020, 02:54 by allan at mustard.net:
>
> Not to pile on, but in my conversations with local communities, more than a few said they avoid the talk lists because of the incivility and rudeness. What constitutes obnoxious behavior varies by culture, and insensitivity to what another culture considers rude drives members of that culture away. OSM allows this to happen at its peril, since OSM strives to be a "map of the world".
>
>
> Or to be more blunt, what is inoffensive and merely clever, sarcastic repartee to a western European may be highly offensive to an Asian, African, or Latin American, who will then bail out and not participate in that comms channel.
>
>
> If you want proof of that, contact the local communities and ask them yourself.
>
>
> cheers,
> apm
> On 8/18/2020 3:22 PM, Michal Migurski wrote:
>
>>> On Aug 18, 2020, at 11:45 AM, Kathleen Lu via osmf-talk <>>> osmf-talk at openstreetmap.org>>> > wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>> I believe it is as safe as any other channel and abuse is very rare.
>>>> Try to find 2 examples from this year of non acceptable communication, and if you cannot, let’s reflect how “toxic” this list really is. From my perception, people spreading the myth of toxicity on OpenStreetMap mailing lists are behaving more toxically than all the communications I have seen on various OpenStreetMap mailing lists in 12 years. Disclaimer: I am not on talk-us, maybe this list is an exception I am not aware of.
>>>> I do recall two events of unpleasant communication, in both cases I believe that personal discourses from
>>>> the real life had moved to the lists (one was on the diversity list, the other was a flame against you before the elections I think 2 years ago).
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>> Martin, don't you think it would only increase the toxicity on this list for people to start calling out by name other people that they think are toxic or abusive? And if people already don't feel safe on this list, why in the world would they feel safe publicly calling out others' behaviors? I am not saying this is your intent, but your challenge could serve as a self-fulfilling prophecy: Tell people that they will not be believed, and they will be unlikely to speak up, and then you'll have your "proof" that there is no toxicity.
>>> I will say that at least three people (a mix of genders) have personally told me that they do not participate in/read the talk listserv because of the culture, and this is not exactly something that comes up in every conversation I have about OSM.
>>> We can all have different opinions on what qualifies as "toxic", but I think that I would prefer "welcoming" to "not that toxic that often," which is what it sounds like you are describing as the standard for "any other channel." I think that is too low of a bar and that OSM should aim for better.
>>>
>>
>> I agree with this viewpoint.
>>
>> Asking people to prove instances of toxicity is not a helpful way to engage this topic. I’d like to re-surface Ivan Gayton’s excellent points on this topic from late last year, on OSM diaries:
>>
>>
>>> “I have failed to notice any outrageous problems” does not come off exactly like an invitation to share the problems, it’s more of a challenge, implicitly saying “prove it,” putting the onus on the person experiencing the hostility to demonstrate that they are not imagining it. A lot of people, rather than investing in this, will simply find another place to put their energy where they are not required to endure hostility or prove its existence in the face of skepticism.
>>>
>>> It might be instructive to re-read that mailing list while specifically keeping in mind the potential experience of, say, a female participant.
>>>
>>> Better yet, if you want to discover whether women (or people of color, or LGTBQ people, or people from low-income countries, or other folks less represented in global wealth and power) are experiencing hostility, a good way to do so is to ask them. As opposed to asking them to prove it.
>>>
>>
>> – >> https://www.openstreetmap.org/user/Heather%20Leson/diary/391598#comment46229
>>
>> A recent Ford & Sloan Foundation report on open source communities (>> https://recommendations.implicit-development.org>> ) repeatedly emphasizes the point that understanding a community’s dynamic requires active outreach to *people who’ve chosen to leave*. Looking to just the hardy extremophiles content to stick around will not tell enough of the story.
>>
>> -mike.
>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________osmf-talk mailing list>> osmf-talk at openstreetmap.org>> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/osmf-talk
>>
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