[Osmf-talk] difficult communication with HOT (and Esri, and YouthMappers)

[Mario Frasca]

dear all, anything we can do to make HOT mention names when they give 
answers?

it's all "an organization", "a group", always this impossible to get any 
further …

the first time I had this, it was with HOT Project 4917, which had been 
left open and abandoned, on an area that could use mapping.

on 2019-02-16 I write to OSM/HOT user PANAMA Manuel Quintero

> Hola buenos días señor Manuel. encuentro su nombre a través de su 
> perfil hotosm 
> (https://tasks.hotosm.org/user/PANAMA%20Manuel%20Quintero 
> <https://tasks.hotosm.org/user/PANAMA%20Manuel%20Quintero>), a que he 
> llegado siguiendo unas ediciones de datos OSM en este área 
> (https://www.openstreetmap.org/#map=17/8.30246/-82.82552&layers=ND 
> <https://www.openstreetmap.org/#map=17/8.30246/-82.82552&layers=ND>), 
> parte del objetivo del proyecto HOTOSM 4917. en esa zona he notado 
> puntos sin tag, áreas con tag ‘landuse’ y ‘natural’ en conflicto, 
> áreas sobrepuestas, parcial o completamente, áreas con tag incompleto, 
> errada clasificación de vías (residencial en zona rural), además, si 
> el objetivo del proyecto 4917 incluye el mapear edificios, faltan los 
> edificios! o sea, una cantidad de errores que me parecen importantes y 
> cuya solución me parece complicada. juntos con otros pocos usuarios 
> estamos creando una comunidad de maperos OSM panameños o de otra 
> manera interesados en Panamá. quiere juntarse, presentar ahí el 
> proyecto 4917, comunicarse con el grupo? cordial saludo, Mario Frasca 
> https://t.me/joinchat/CLndmwoptpVZhe6davpW7Q 
> <https://t.me/joinchat/CLndmwoptpVZhe6davpW7Q>
>
obtuve respuesta, el día mismo:

>     Seguro que si… excelente iniciativa. En lo que pueda ser util a la
>     orden.
>
>     Saludos Manuel Quintero
>
le pasé el enlace al grupo para charlar, y se unió el mes siguiente, 
2019-03-19 (https://t.me/Comunidad_OSM_Panama/1636 
<tg://resolve?domain=Comunidad_OSM_Panama&post=1636>), pero con otra 
petición, para examinar la posibilidad de abrir otro proyecto HOT en Panamá.

> La Alcaldia de Panama en conmemoración de los 500 años desea realizar 
> un mapathon. Nos reuniremos en Esri Panamá el dia jueves 21 de marzo a 
> las 2:00pm.. nos gustaría contar con la participación de 1 o 2 
> miembros de esta gran comunidad OSM Panama
> Contaremos tambien con la Participación de la Presidenta del Capítulo 
> de Youthmappers Universidad de Panamá :+1:
(please note the absence of names.)

to which I did participate, for which I volunteered a summary of the 
meeting (https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Panamá/Reunión_2019-03-21) 
where I did mention names, and provided my recommendations, and never 
heard from them again.

The area of Guna Nega, never mentioned, had already been chosen at the 
time of the meeting (https://www.openstreetmap.org/changeset/68355291; 
https://www.openstreetmap.org/changeset/68343853) and peaked in October 
that year, and I did not associate with the meeting, and is only 
mentioned in our Wiki in a recent diary page of mine 
(https://www.openstreetmap.org/user/mariotomo/diary/395025).

back to project 4917, it continued there attracting edits of beginners 
armchair mappers, and nobody was reviewing it, and Panama is a small 
country with few mappers, the area was not according to any of us high 
priority.

so in early September 2019 I write on the comments tab of the 4917 
project, https://tasks.hotosm.org/projects/4917, and since nobody was 
answering in public, I escalate to the OSM account BGirardot, who 
created the project for PANAMA Manuel Quintero,

> Hi BGirardot, you are marked as project manager for 4917. I wish to 
> have some information about that. it seems to be dead, nobody 
> reviewing, but still from time to time attracting low quality edits to 
> the area. can anything be done about it? also a transparent project 
> auditing would be very appreciated by Panamanian mappers who live in 
> the area and never have been aware of the project while it was being 
> set up. preferably, in a openstreetmap.org/wiki page linked to the 
> wiki/Panama page. best regard, Mario Frasca
>
the prompt reply:

> I archived the project.
>
> It was requested by an OSM Panama group.
>
> Regards, Blake
>
this wasn't very informative, and not focusing on evaluation and prevention,

> Hi Blake, thank you for the quick action.
>
> is there any chance to see the project evaluated in any way? possibly: 
> to include in the HOT protocols, some sort of socialization of the 
> activity-to-be-started with the *rest* of the affected country? after 
> all, we have a wiki page on openstreetmap, and it’s not been used in 
> this case.
>
> that’s for the future, and not limited to Panama,
>
> for this one: thank you and best regards,
>
> Mario Frasca
>
and since he wasn't replying on the project, I write again via private 
OSM email:

> Hi Blake! could you please check the Questions and Comments tab on the 
> project page? thank you warmly, Mario Frasca
>
> https://tasks.hotosm.org/project/4917 
> <https://tasks.hotosm.org/project/4917>
>
sent one more reminder two days later, then gave up.

> from the Questions and Comments tab in the task.
>
> mariotomo 2 days ago
>
> Hi bgirardot, I wrote to you in a private message on OSM, to which you 
> reacted “I archived the project.” Through private messages, the 
> communication stays private, while I wish to keep it public. Could you 
> please come back here, and tell the community where to find more 
> information about this project? If “archiving” means “closing”, any 
> chance to see it evaluated?
>
I've been reminded of this incident by a recent similar contact 
(https://t.me/OpenStreetMapOffTopic/8662), an answer by Sam Colchester 
to Charlie Plett from Belize, where Sam mentions "a regional disaster 
response agency", whichever that might be.

is there anything we can do to make mappers speak about what they are 
doing?  in particular if they belong to organizations, here I've met HOT 
backing Esri and YouthMappers in keeping secrecy.

I'm very upset by this continuous hiding of agendas and information 
protection.

I have no interest in understanding their motives for keeping secrecy, I 
just wish OSM to fight back.

Mario Frasca - mariotomo

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