[Osmf-talk] [OSM-talk] Call to Take Action and Confront Systemic Offensive Behavior in the OSM Community

Thu Dec 10 17:31:46 UTC 2020

arnalie faye vicario:
> Hello/kumusta,
> 
> What an overwhelming response!
> 
> This is my first time to email thru the global osm talk; it really takes true grit to 
> join the conversations, huge thanks to the people who inspired me and sparked the flame.
> 
> I will keep it short and redirect you to a (short) OSM Diary I wrote on Why WOMEN are 
> pushing for a safe and inclusive space in OSM: 
> https://www.openstreetmap.org/user/arnalielsewhere/diary/395064 
> <https://www.openstreetmap.org/user/arnalielsewhere/diary/395064>

You diary example is a great argument for the workings of OSM. We can tag everything 
and data consumers can use what they need.

But why have you not tagged
https://www.openstreetmap.org/way/100466621
with lit=yes ?

And all this has nothing with these mailing lists.

It also has nothing to do with welcoming diversity and inclusion.
I, and surely many other white males, have tagged thousands of ways and paths with 
lit=yes.

Not only for the benefit of women. There are also men that need it for security. And 
children (both boys and girls) or their parents. It could be used to assist vehicles 
in handling lights and speed, etc. Or for astronomers.

And we have not discouraged any women or men from tagging where ways are lit.

I just checked with overpass and I have edited more than 32.000 ways with lit set.
https://overpass-turbo.eu/s/1133

So I do feel disappointed by your diary implying that as a white male I am 
unwelcoming diversity and inclusion by ignoring lit tags.

I think you should encourage women to tag more with lit=yes/no and other things you 
believe are more important to women. Not that men could not also do it (like I am).

But we are volunteers and there is nothing wrong in tagging the things that are most 
useful to us. For example I have very little interest in manholes or power-poles.
But I have tagged 300+ bars with smoking. Because I prefer to have my beers without 
smoke. It is of course also useful to smokers looking for a bar, which is fine with 
me as it just makes OSM more useful.
I am not particularly interested in volleyball, but I have made sure that all rowing 
clubs in and close to Denmark are in OSM.
About 280 of them: https://agol.dk/elgaard/roklubber.html

I also think that routing apps could take advantage of lit tags by having a "prefer 
lit roads" option. That it outside the scope of OSM, but as we get more ways tagget 
with "lit", it get more likely to happen and more useful.

> A slide from @mapmakerdavid states "it takes good relationships to navigate an ocean.”
> 
> =Arnalie
> 
> Sent from my iPhone
> 
>> On Dec 10, 2020, at 8:01 PM, James <james2432 at gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> 
>> > The lack of discussion by non-men is an undeniable fact.
>>
>> >Right, this is true. Sadly true. Something I also know from Linux Communities and other Open Source/Open Data Communities.
>>
>> Same in programming and IT fields, firefighters, mechanics, carpenters, 
>> construction workers, taxi drivers, etc etc...
>>
>> Now is it a simple lack of interest in the field? Gate keeping? 
>> Discrimination/Sexism? Is it because of tradition that is still lingering?
>>
>> We should work with other humans and see why as well as question ourselves what can 
>> we do/change?
>>
>> We should treat other fellow humans, despite sex, race or country of origin, as we 
>> would want to be treated.
>>
>> Would you like to be put down based on your employer, despite your knowledge? 
>> Probably not, then don't do it
>>
>> Would you like to be put down based on your genitalia, despite being quite 
>> knowledgeable? No? Then don't do it.
>>
>> On Thu., Dec. 10, 2020, 6:38 a.m. tilmanreinecke--- via talk, 
>> <talk at openstreetmap.org <mailto:talk at openstreetmap.org>> wrote:
>>
>>     > The lack of discussion by non-men is an undeniable fact.
>>
>>     Right, this is true. Sadly true. Something I also know from Linux Communities
>>     and other Open Source/Open Data Communities.
>>
>>     > The simplest explanation for this is the systematic institutional hostility
>>     towards women in the OSM community.
>>
>>     I did not hear about something like that what can be called "systematic". Are
>>     you sure that we have something like that in OSM? If yes, then please point to
>>     where that happened. I am pretty sure that this is not something systematic. I
>>     know women not feeling this way as you because OpenStreetMap is an open and
>>     welcoming community.
>>
>>     Greetings
>>
>>     Sören
>>
>>
>>     -------- Original Message --------
>>     Subject: Re: [OSM-talk] Call to Take Action and Confront Systemic Offensive
>>     Behavior in the OSM Community
>>     From: Clay Smalley __
>>     To: Celine Jacquin __
>>     CC: osmf-talk at openstreetmap.org <mailto:osmf-talk at openstreetmap.org>,osm __
>>
>>
>>         I'm noticing a pattern here in the replies to this email:
>>
>>         Only men have replied. This is, unfortunately, par for the course on the
>>         OSM mailing lists. The lack of discussion by non-men is an undeniable fact.
>>         The simplest explanation for this is the systematic institutional hostility
>>         towards women in the OSM community. The replies themselves are the best
>>         evidence of this.
>>
>>         These men replying have taken it upon themselves to explain to a woman what
>>         constitutes misogyny. News flash: you do not get to decide what offends
>>         other people. If you are a man, misogyny will never happen to you by
>>         definition. If you are a man, you have never been, are not, and will never
>>         be a victim of misogyny. This isn't your area of expertise. Listen to the
>>         experts.
>>
>>         Some men replying have even mentioned how this draft letter hurts their
>>         feelings. These men need to slow down and consider for a moment that their
>>         temporarily hurt feelings are less important than the safety of women.
>>         Men's feelings are irrelevant to issues where women are victims.
>>
>>         As far as I know, various OSM-affiliated groups have codes of conduct, but
>>         there isn't one governing these mailing lists. We need to adopt a code of
>>         conduct yesterday.
>>
>>         -Clay (they/them)
>>
>>         On Wed, Dec 9, 2020 at 2:13 PM Celine Jacquin <celija at gmail.com
>>         <mailto:celija at gmail.com>> wrote:
>>
>>             Hello everybody
>>             I hope you are all well
>>
>>             We, several groups, chapters, organizations and individuals, have
>>             reacted to the conversation in the osm-talk-list
>>             (https://lists.openstreetmap.org/pipermail/talk/2020-December/085692.html
>>             <https://lists.openstreetmap.org/pipermail/talk/2020-December/085692.html>)
>>             considering that it is an incident symptomatic of the problem we have
>>             faced for many years in the community, which is one of the greatest
>>             obstacles to diversity at all levels of OSM. Time to make a real change.
>>             That is why we have developed a beginning of statement on the desirable
>>             mechanisms to work solidly on the rules of coexistence and improve
>>             diversity.
>>
>>             We bring it to your attention and invite anyone who feels represented
>>             to sign it. Translations are in preparation (any help is welcome):
>>             https://docs.google.com/document/d/130JCTX9ve4H4ORXznmIVTpXiN3TX8nRGA8ayuTZ9ECI/edit?usp=sharing
>>             <https://docs.google.com/document/d/130JCTX9ve4H4ORXznmIVTpXiN3TX8nRGA8ayuTZ9ECI/edit?usp=sharing>
>>
>>
>>             On behalf of the signatories
>>             Best regards
>>
>>             Céline Jacquin
>>             _______________________________________________
>>             talk mailing list
>>             talk at openstreetmap.org <mailto:talk at openstreetmap.org>
>>             https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
>>             <https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk>
>>
>>     _______________________________________________
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>>     talk at openstreetmap.org <mailto:talk at openstreetmap.org>
>>     https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
>>     <https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk>
>>
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> 
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-- 
Niels Elgaard Larsen