[Osmf-talk] App, not API level | Re: Règles d'éditions organisées / Directed editing guidelines,

Rory McCann rory at technomancy.org
Thu Oct 1 10:47:40 UTC 2020 

In addition (correct me if I'm wrong), there is currently no easily supported way to actually block an app/editing software at the API level.

I don't believe in ultimatums for any app that isn't perfect at the start, but maps.me has been around a while and has made lots of edits, so they should probably up their game.

On Wed, 30 Sep 2020, at 10:42 AM, Simon Poole wrote:
> Note to all: there is currently no efficient way for an app of any kind 
> to retrieve recent or new changeset comments on the changesets of a 
> specific user via the API. With other words an ultimatum to app devs to 
> do that is just plain silly.
> 
> Am 30. September 2020 01:34:22 MESZ schrieb Philippe Verdy <verdyp at gmail.com>: 
> > I also agree that any app that does not provide any way to submit a changeset comment, and does not allow commenting on other's notes and comments, should be given an ultimatum now, and then banned after a maximum of 2 months, until they prove they implement the minimum communication means that are required in what is essentially a **fully cooperative** project, i.e. OpenStreetMap. As well each contributor that submit data with the app should be directly contactable using the standard OSM tools (independently of the possible existence of external communication tools specific to the app or its provider).
> > 
> > For me, MAPS.ME <http://maps.me/> violates the OSM contributor terms (by actually not allowing its users to follow these terms correctly), and the OSM licence (by not showing the correct contributor terms).
> > And a way to accelerate this would also mean that the app be blocked from using the OSM tile servers.
> > 
> > MAPS.ME <http://maps.me/> users are not responsible for this: if we block MAPS.ME <http://maps.me/>, users will see that their app is not working and will use another compliant app.
> > 
> > This situation is not sustainable: allowing MAPS.ME <http://maps.me/> to continue gives a false hint to other abusers that they can do the same without damages.
> > 
> > 
> > Le ven. 25 sept. 2020 à 10:11, Rory McCann <rory at technomancy.org> a écrit :
> >> I think better software can help. Maps.me should support OSM messaging, and/or changeset comments. It should provide a way to save locations locally rather than OSM. I think many tourism attraction issues could be people who just want to save a location. Apps that make it easy for people to make a mistake have a responsibility to make it easy for the wider community to find and repair those mistakes. Apps should provide web services which highlight these sort of problematic edits. The OSM database is commons, it's owned by all of us. If you make an app, you can't just do what you want, and release it into the world, you have a responsilbity to follow OSM norms.
> >> 
> >> Apps like StreetComplete or pic4review are very focused and limited. If new users use these their damage can be limited. (I use StreetComplete regularly because it makes many things easier) 
> >> 
> >> I don't support any hierarchy of mappers. We're a wiki, all users can edit all objects, immediately. Apps and editing software can, and should, have different rules, but at a core OSM level, at an API level, that should be the method. 
> >> 
> >> Rory
> >> 
> >> On Wed, 23 Sep 2020, at 6:00 PM, Lukasz Kruk wrote:
> >> > > I'm beginning to think that a simple way to improve data quality would be to put a less powerful tool in the hands of inexperienced mappers. 
> >> > 
> >> > Indeed, I can think of a few other examples where a poor editing tool 
> >> > with inadequate guidance leads to the creation of bad data. Is there a 
> >> > way to flag such cases and/or address systemic issues?
> >> > 
> >> > For example, for some reason MAPS.ME <http://maps.me/> <http://maps.me/> users in the 
> >> > Middle East seem to create a lot of points tagged as tourism=attraction 
> >> > in cases where it is certainly not the correct tag 
> >> > (http://overpass-turbo.eu/s/YfW). To make it worse, there seems to be 
> >> > no reliable way of contacting these users. Can I do anything do help to 
> >> > fix this?
> >> > 
> >> > Speaking more generally - is it perhaps worth it to have a conversation 
> >> > if e.g. user accounts younger than X and with less than Y changesets 
> >> > are restricted from particular types of edits (e.g. ones that touch 
> >> > relations, or delete reaaaaly large features)? Or - to be even more 
> >> > general, and try to address the problem as close to the source as 
> >> > possible - would the community or OSMF want to make sure that every OSM 
> >> > editor (software, not person) needs to have adequate guidance before 
> >> > allowing edits? Or perhaps editors with lower access barrier (such as 
> >> > smartphone apps) should require that the user completes ID editor's 
> >> > walkthrough before allowing edits? 
> >> > 
> >> > Sorry for straying off the original topic. Regards,
> >> > 
> >> > 
> >> > 
> >> > On Sat, 22 Jun 2019 at 15:18, John Whelan <jwhelan0112 at gmail.com> wrote:
> >> > > I'm beginning to think that a simple way to improve data quality would be to put a less powerful tool in the hands of inexperienced mappers.  A simpler editor with fewer choices or perhaps an existing editor with restricted choices for a particular task or region.
> >> > > 
> >> > > Do we really need sidewalk=no on every village street in Africa?
> >> > > 
> >> > > For more experienced mappers yes its nice to have the flexibility but for someone with say less than 100 edits mapping from imagery a simpler editor might be better.
> >> > > 
> >> > > The trouble with instructions is they must be read and understood and many new mappers just want to map first.
> >> > > 
> >> > > Cheerio John
> >> > > 
> >> > > severin.menard via osmf-talk wrote on 2019-06-22 7:53 AM:
> >> > >> (Automatic DeepL translation below)
> >> > 
> >> > >> Bonjour
> >> > 
> >> > >> Il y a quelques semaines, j’ai participé à l’organisation d’un mapathon sur plusieurs jours dans le cadre d’une formation à OpenStreetMap et aux outils de la géomatique, animée à Antananarivo à Madagascar avec d’autres contributeurs OpenStreetMap expérimentés.
> >> > 
> >> > >> J’ai cherché à me conformer aux nouvelles règles concernant les éditions dirigées de la Fondation OSM [1] adoptée par son bureau le 15 novembre 2018 [2], en listant notre activité dans cette page du wiki [3] et en créant une sous-page spécifique [4] en m’aidant, à défaut de modèles génériques, de l’un des exemples fournis qu’il m’a fallu adapter au contexte. J’ai récemment procédé à une mise jour de cette sous-page pour intégrer les résultats de ces éditions. Je serais intéressé d’avoir des retours et suggestions du groupe de travail sur les données.
> >> > 
> >> > >> J’ai ensuite regardé les autres projets de la page wiki principale [3]. Parmi les organisations qui ont fait des mapathons une activité importante voire phare de leur activité, j’ai pu remarquer à mon grand étonnement que :
> >> > 
> >> > >> - HOT US Inc propose bien une sous-page spécifique, mais pour l’ensemble de ses éditions organisées, avec une section finale particulièrement succincte sur la qualité qui semble s’appuyer uniquement sur les capacités du Tasking Manager, en dehors des projets où des équipes de terrain peuvent être impliquées. De récentes discussions [5] au sujet du contrôle de qualité dans les projets ont montré que le processus de suivi n’est pas jugé satisfaisant par des contributeurs expérimentés
> >> > 
> >> > >> - Youthmappers a juste créé une ligne dans le tableau principal sans aucune sous-page spécifique ni quelconque indication sur la manière de gérer les éditions dirigées qu’elle encourage pourtant vivement [6]
> >> > 
> >> > >> - Missing Maps n’apparaît nullement dans le tableau principal en tant qu’organisation, seul est présent le groupe CZ & SK qui fournit une sous-page extrêmement limitée [7] ! Les catastrophes cartographiques engendrées par les mapathons labellisés Missing Maps ont pourtant été l’une des deux raisons de la mise en place de cette politique visant à encadrer les éditions dirigées, avec les nuisances provoquées par quelques entreprises contribuant dans OSM comme bon leur semble et refusant d’interagir avec la communauté OSM.
> >> > 
> >> > >> Actuellement, cette politique concernant les éditions dirigées n’est donc, paradoxalement, pas respectée, voire totalement négligée par les principales organisations qu’elle ciblait. Quelle suite compte donner la Fondation et son groupe de travail sur les données devant ces faits, plus de six mois après l’officialisation des Organised editing guidelines ?
> >> > 
> >> > >> 
> >> > 
> >> > >> Cordialement,
> >> > 
> >> > >> 
> >> > 
> >> > >> Severin
> >> > 
> >> > >> 
> >> > >> ------------------
> >> > >> Hello,
> >> > >> 
> >> > >> A few weeks ago, I participated in the organization of a multi-day mapathon as part of a training course on OpenStreetMap and geomatics tools, held in Antananarivo, Madagascar with other experienced OpenStreetMap contributors.
> >> > >> I have sought to comply with the new rules concerning the OSM Foundation's directed editions[1] adopted by its board on November 15, 2018[2], by listing our activity in this page of the wiki[3] and by creating a specific subpage[4] by using, in the absence of generic models, one of the examples provided, which I had to adapt to the context. I recently updated this subpage to include the results of these editions. I would be interested to have feedback and suggestions from the Data Working Group.
> >> > >> 
> >> > >> I then looked at the other projects on the main wiki page [3]. Among the organizations that have made Mapathons an important or even flagship activity of their activity, I was surprised to notice that:
> >> > >> - HOT US Inc does propose a specific subpage, but for all its organized editions, with a particularly brief final section on quality that seems to rely solely on the capabilities of the Tasking Manager, outside projects where field teams can be involved. Recent discussions[5] about quality control in projects have shown that the monitoring process is not considered satisfactory by experienced contributors
> >> > >> - Youthmappers has just created a line in the main table without any specific subpage or guidance on how to manage the directed editions, which it strongly encourages[6]
> >> > >> - Missing Maps does not appear in the main table as an organization, only the CZ & SK group is present, which provides an extremely limited subpage[7] ! The cartographic disasters caused by Missing Maps labelled mapathons were however one of the two reasons for the implementation of this policy aimed at regulating directed editions, with the nuisances caused by some companies contributing to OSM as they see fit and refusing to interact with the OSM community.
> >> > >> 
> >> > >> At present, this policy concerning directed editions is therefore, paradoxically, not respected or even totally neglected by the main organizations it targeted. What follow-up does the Foundation and its Data Working Group intend to give to these facts, more than six months after the officialization of the Organized editing guidelines?
> >> > >> 
> >> > >> Sincerely,
> >> > >> 
> >> > >> Severin
> >> > >> 
> >> > >> 
> >> > >> Translated with www.DeepL.com/Translator <http://www.deepl.com/Translator> <http://www.deepl.com/Translator>
> >> > >> 
> >> > 
> >> > >> [1] https://wiki.osmfoundation.org/w/images/6/62/Organised_Editing_Guidelines.pdf
> >> > 
> >> > >> [2] https://wiki.osmfoundation.org/wiki/Board/Minutes/2018-11-15#Voting
> >> > 
> >> > >> [3] https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Organised_Editing/Activities
> >> > 
> >> > >> [4] https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Organised_Editing/Activities/Madagascar_Itasy_lake_Mapathon
> >> > 
> >> > >> [5] https://lists.openstreetmap.org/pipermail/hot/2019-June/014897.html
> >> > 
> >> > >> [6] https://www.youthmappers.org/single-post/2019/06/18/The-Importance-of-Mapping-in-Earthquake-Regions
> >> > 
> >> > >> [7] https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Talk:Cs:Mapathon
> >> > 
> >> > >> 
> >> > >> 
> >> > >> 
> >> > >> 
> >> > >> 
> >> > >> _______________________________________________
> >> > osmf-talk mailing list
> >> > >> osmf-talk at openstreetmap.org
> >> > >> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/osmf-talk
> >> > > 
> >> > > -- 
> >> > > Sent from Postbox <https://www.postbox-inc.com/>
> >> > > _______________________________________________
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> >> > > osmf-talk at openstreetmap.org
> >> > > https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/osmf-talk
> >> > 
> >> > 
> >> > -- 
> >> > pozdrawiam - kind regards - cumprimentos - mfg
> >> > Łukasz Kruk
> >> > http://lukaszkruk.com
> >> > _______________________________________________
> >> > osmf-talk mailing list
> >> > osmf-talk at openstreetmap.org
> >> > https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/osmf-talk
> >> >
> >> 
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