[Osmf-talk] Africa as a training ground was RE: google Open Buildings usage request

Wed Aug 4 12:12:05 UTC 2021

>
> From conversations I've had with local mappers I think reality is they
> accept they need remote mappers to map the basic framework and to correct
> obvious errors in the map.

....

 So can someone preferably based in Africa think of a practical way to
> increase the numbers of mappers in Africa so they can take on more of the
> mapping?

This might not be a valid reason to use one net for an entire group of
people, what works in Ghana might not work in Togo or elsewhere. It might
not only be about mapping; what is the added value, what can I do beyond
mapping feature A or B.

Who gets to decide which companies or interest groups are unacceptable?  Is
> it just companies and organizations that we don't like?  I'm pretty sure
> this rule, if applied as stated, would exclude the vast majority of OSMF and
> local chapter board members.
>
I believe this community is 'open' to everyone, pointing out this or that
does not mean that a company or organization is not liked by someone /
community; if that is the assumption I beg to differ.

On Wed, 4 Aug 2021 at 13:37, Mateusz Konieczny via osmf-talk <
osmf-talk at openstreetmap.org> wrote:

> But it is perfectly fine to prefer people without conflict of interest
> when selecting leaders.
>
>
> Aug 3, 2021, 22:24 by heatherleson at gmail.com:
>
> Dear Bert
>
> "Local chapter board or leaders should not be affiliated with any
> financiers or specific interest groups. No Facebook, no MapBox, no Apple,
> no Google, no TomTom etc... NO HOT"
>
> With all due respect, this is an "open" community. I or anyone should not
> be excluded because I have a job or belong to any community. To restrict
> this is to not be "open".
>
> Thank you
>
> Heather
>
> On Tue, 3 Aug 2021, 15:44 Bert -Araali- Van Opstal, <
> bert.araali.afritastic at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> Who is insulting who ? I don't recall having said anything insulting or
> saying anything in the line that "all the contributions HOT is making are
> useless or garbage", in the contrary.
>
> I understand it's hard to swallow criticism, especially when you are
> involved for a long time, but you don't address it by replying or targeting
> personally. It underlines that there is an issue, both in handling,
> dealing, discussing and addressing the issues raised or proving that they
> are based on incomplete or misrepresented actual situation.
>
> Of course, in some cases, those which can be categorized as non-crisis
> responses or other organisations working through the HOT Tasking manager
> are local individuals, happy to be so. This doesn't change the fact though
> that HOT, let it be clear with all it's good intentions, fails as much as
> OSM as a community to reach and activate local communities in less
> fortunate and IT savvy regions.
> And as stated before, more and more, advocates and actively implements
> policies that contradict with OSM's "Good practices", philosophy and
> primary objectives. This includes ruling local chapters, using the same
> policies and tools for nearly all their activities. Is that saying HOT
> should stop this, all what HOT is doing is useless or bad, no it isn't. It
> is an observation of what has happened, how HOT's activities have evolved
> and how it's moving towards a model that is very different from the core of
> OSM and it's vibrant community. OSM doesn't want to become HOT, not in
> Africa not in other places. As much as OSM doesn't want to become
> wikipedia, Facebook, Google or Microsoft. OSM and it's community efforts
> and data needs protection against these, and we have a policy against to
> preserve it.
> We need OSM to be independent from HOT and similar organisations, the
> companies and their tools. And we have made procedures and guidelines to do
> so, by the community and with consensus of the community.
>
> The basic principles favoured by HOT, is that it advocates primarily the
> use of satellite imagery as a tool to respond to humanitarian crisis. OSM
> primarily wants to map ground truth, capture local knowledge and local
> interests in geodata. Satellite imagery, AI data, authoritative or reliable
> external data sources or organised mass edits are secondary, supporting
> tools for these primary goals. If they have no added value, in the opinion
> of the local or global OSM community, overrule or are a motivation to
> delete what was already there, the use is discouraged or should be
> abandoned.
> This is expressed in the procedures, training materials etc... by HOT. As
> an example: how to deal with offsets, where Bing is referred as "the golden
> standard" in case local information like GPS tracks is missing. If that
> information is missing, the policy should be to gather the ground truth,
> not rely on satelite imagery, which still after all these years of
> development, suffers from significant inaccuracies in post-processing and
> stitching together the images, especially in mountainousness areas or those
> areas that lack high quality and stable control and validation points.
>
> I am not surprised by the many answers received here. They illustrate the
> tendency of HOT to move away from the primary tools we as an OSM community
> try to sustain and improve. True, of course with all their flaws, and at a
> slow stride, inherent characteristic to the type of community we are and
> want to be and our mode of operation based on volunteers.
> As such, there is nothing wrong with that, as long as the primary tools
> and community are respected. A means of respect to the OSM name you are
> permitted to carry, doesn't come with attribution only, but also respect
> for it's community and how and where it wishes to operate. The OSM wiki is
> not updated with project or organised editing guidelines, the use of
> mailing lists is very poor.
> With all respect for Pierre and other HOT supporters, but once you reach
> the state of handing over from a HOT initiative to the community, to OSM,
> trust and follow the guidelines, as the community tries to do. Trust that
> no one will fundamentally change your initial wiki page without
> consultation, we have a history to follow up on that. Policies in the use
> and contribution of OSM are hardly ever discussed within the OSM forums. A
> motivation like we mostly use "telegram, facebook, whatsapp etc... because
> that is what the locals mostly know and use are easy solutions and
> justifications to deviate. It is not different from the situation in other
> regions where OSM is more successful. Actually, it should be a motivation
> to promote those very OSM channels, as they have proven respect for
> privacy, inclusion and they work to have more deep discussions. Don't take
> the easy path, take the hard one, as it's proven even the easy path isn't
> giving substantial results and declining. It is not just limited to social
> media, also other tools like zoom, google drive, eventbrite etc... are
> intensively used and promoted. Gaps where OSM is filling in with
> BigBlueButton and Nextcloud, using it's financial resources and, in the
> cases where OSMF has not yet provided an alternative, the preferred ones
> are identified, in many cases open source and free alternatives are readily
> available.
>
> And that is where it comes to the "ruling" statement. Local chapters are
> established, by HOT, with HOT funds, by HOT supporters or employees. Using
> these very policies and HOT primary goals. The members are HOT volunteers
> or HOT affiliated or related organisations. Using HOT tools as the tasking
> manager, the HOT promoted or supported channels. Essentially, creating a
> conflict of interest, proposing a HOT centred approach of mapping in OSM.
> Allow me to quote Pete Masters response:
>
>
> Once a community or organisation requests project management permissions
> (and is onboarded on how) to use the tasking manager, they take
> responsibility for their own projects. HOT does not direct or gatekeep at
> this point (although it does offer guidance and advice). It is correct to
> call all of these projects tasking manager projects and it is correct to
> call some of them HOT projects.
>
> Taking this literally, with some attempts but without active experience,
> if you want to use the Tasking manager you need permission from HOT. What
> me seem not essentially contradicting the OSM philosophy, as HOT not being
> the gatekeeper but it does restrict you to follow their project management
> methods, communication channels and offers guidance as how to do so, in the
> HOT approach.  Thus, even if HOT doesn't act as the gatekeeper, it makes
> them essentially HOT projects, since there is few or deeply hidden guidance
> of following the OSM guidelines. What seems a great idea or tool at first
> glance, appears to be more a camouflaged trap to do projects the HOT way,
> supporting the HOT philosophy deviating from OSM principles.
>
>
> Even if HOT is the gatekeeper, following this strategy, numerous projects
> never get completed. Due to lack of what ?  Lack of qualified validators,
> people validating the work of their own limited group, lost interest, PM's
> have moved on to the next project. I recently did a test, mapped some
> buildings in a HOT project which was standing there uncompleted for 3
> years, mapping tasks that were acquiring more work. Months later, no one
> even looked at it. There is no follow up, no maintenance, no hand over to
> the OSM community, no validation taking place anymore.
>
> An always returning primary strategy seems training, training , training.
> Training is useful, and has proven it's success when you are able to train
> interested contributors who have access to resources to participate in OSM.
> Good examples are f.i. the youthmappers, who have access through their
> institutions. It is incorrect to say, that the only cause of OSM failing in
> the less fortunate regions, is due to a lack of resources. The increase in
> the rise of e-commerce, online financial services, has proven that an
> increasing number of the population does have access. Yet it is not
> reflected in a comparable increase in OSM contributors. So we somehow fail
> to tap into this growing community. The training should be diverse though,
> not focused on the use of the Tasking manager or any editor, but with the
> same importance on the OSM wiki, it's purpose, the mailing lists and
> changeset comments, how to connect and communicate with the broader
> community.
> Still a large part, mostly in the rural areas is not at that level, being
> access or financial means. To organise training there doesn't make sense,
> you can't teach "a pupil how to write when he doesn't have a paper and
> pencil". Government agencies and administration also lacks the same
> resources. To find ground and support in these communities an approach on
> empowering them first, like through community centres, hub or schools and
> providing them with resources who can be searched could be a way forward.
> These hubs could be maintained and managed by the local chapters, local
> private partners. Essentially handing them over to the community, to OSM
> affiliated local communities.
>
> Finally a word about the scope of humanitarian. With the ever growing
> challenges we face, climate change, pandemics, the whole word is in a
> humanitarian crisis. Good for HOT, as a humanitarian organisation the world
> mapping ecosystem has become a potential candidate. Making it an
> alternative to OSM. Please don't, stick to the core, acute crisis's where
> immediate intervention, remote with local support is required. Don't become
> a competitor, become a supporter. Focus on establishing sustainable local
> OSM communties, hand over and leave it to them. Support establishing local
> chapters, but then step away from it and let the local community florish.
> Local chapter board or leaders should not be affiliated with any financiers
> or specific interest groups. No Facebook, no MapBox, no Apple, no Google,
> no TomTom etc... NO HOT. Give us a chance, respect and trust that all
> communities are able to do so, the passionate ones and leaders will come
> forward, whatever background they have humanitarian, engineering, software
> developer, farmer, nurse or pupil... in the right environment, not
> dominated by the more privileged, skilled or educated they will find a
> platform, OSM, to be able and do so.
>
> Greetings,
>
> Bert Araali
>
>
>
> On 01/08/2021 20:48, Geoffrey Kateregga wrote:
>
> Hi everyone,
>
> Interesting discussion here, seeing that it grew out of RE: Google Open
> Buildings usage request and has turned into a discussion of HOT projects.
>
> I think the solution to all this is having strong local OSM communities
> who take ownership of OpenStreetMap in their countries. Communities who can
> raise the resources they need to train their members and coordinate mapping
> activities. That is exactly what we have been doing in Uganda, and for
> someone to come out and claim that the local community here is ruled by HOT
> is an insult and a lack of acknowledgment of all the good work we have done
> over the years by the members of the OSM community in Uganda.
>
> The HOT Tasking manager is a tool, which many organizations including
> local OSM communities in Africa are using to coordinate their mapping. Not
> all the projects on the HOT Tasking Manager are set up and managed by HOT.
> It is just a tool that different communities make use of to coordinate
> their mapping.
>
> Many of the individuals mapping using the HOT Tasking Manager are actually
> locals in those countries. In Uganda, the local OSM community here has been
> mapping Uganda's new cities, and all the border towns across the country
> using the HOT Tasking Manager, in a coordinated way where projects are
> mapped and validated to clean up the data.
>
> One last point I want to make is that you will not see many responses
> here, from African mappers, simply because not many of them are on the
> membership mailing list, but also because they prefer to use different
> channels to communicate including Telegram, WhatsApp, and Facebook groups,
> maybe its worth seeking their point of view on this topic on those channels
> as well.
>
> Kind regards,
> Geoffrey
>
> Member of the OSM Community in Uganda.
>
>
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-- 
-Enock
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