[Osmf-talk] Tagging standards

[osm.sanspourriel at spamgourmet.com]

Le 20/10/2022 à 15:57, grin via osmf-talk - osmf-talk at openstreetmap.org
a écrit :
 > For example there is no key for Hungarian cukrászda, which is not
confetery, but the key used for such objects. Shall I create a new key?
Maybe I should.

If https://hu.wikipedia.org/wiki/Az_orsz%C3%A1g_tort%C3%A1ja is the
correct page for that, then I would suggest shop=pastry

https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:shop%3Dpastry sounds to be a
better choice to me. I must admit I've never even Hungarian cukrászda
and make a hint, just a hint.

Then if shop=pastry is roughly correct, feel free to ask for a key
pastry=, where you would add pastry=cukrászda (possibly a semicolon
separated list).

And cukrászda= if you want to refine. Here cukrászda=Dobos torte;Rákóczi
túrós for instance.

It's the Hungarian community to decide if cukraszda (without accent)
would be acceptable as as key.

On https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Culture_of_Hungary I read:

Pastries, cake, and coffee are served at a cukrászda, while an
eszpresszó is a cafeteria.

Served? Is it more like a teahouse? Usually do you stay to eat or not?
If you eat there, then shop=pastry is maybe not the best choice.

So on a mainstream renderer you'll get it roughly rendered
Confectionery-14.svg
<https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/File:Confectionery-14.svg> (roughly
I said ;-)), on Overpass turbo you'll be able to find exactly what you
need and on a Hungarian food oriented map you'll see the difference.

So the only possible difficulty I see here is the usage of non ASCII
characters in a key. Not a big deal (by the way, refrain from using
abbreviations on international lists, I would have used NBD and BTW with
my Americans colleagues but intentionally NOT here: be more inclusive
with non native speakers. If you find it hard, remember, it's about
politeness and inclusion).

Le 21/10/2022 à 16:46, steveaOSM - steveaOSM at softworkers.org a écrit :
 > This (a British English tagging heritage) is but one of the realities
that OSM forces upon us, and we live with it.  I’m not going to throw
tomatoes at Allan, Frederik, or even Steve (Coast) for this, as it is a
solution that has become a “had to be made” (at some point) decision
early in our project.
Neither would I, and Allan seems to be pessimistic, I believe here
nobody wants to throw tomatoes, and not only because it's bad to throw
food away! We do have different opinions on some points, but in my
honest opinion, we respect the other opinions and are trying to find
solutions. No definitive solutions, simply partial solutions and move
forward.

Le 20/10/2022 à 15:57, grin via osmf-talk - osmf-talk at openstreetmap.org
a écrit :
 > Does café mean something which works like a café (in England?) or
something which is CALLED a café locally
Le 21/10/2022 à 16:46, steveaOSM - steveaOSM at softworkers.org a écrit :
 > Whether café is “as in Britain” or “the Italian kind (because the
node is in Italy)" clearly remains a sore spot, as we do lose great
cultural diversity in our tagging as we flatten semantics to fit into
one particular dialect of one particular natural language. (Or, perhaps
better stated, all others who don’t know British English words and
concepts must learn about them to the extent their tagging desires
overlap with them, even as these are perfectly described in another
local language — with perfect precision).
Le 21/10/2022 à 03:48, Niels Elgaard Larsen - elgaard at agol.dk a écrit :
 > Even in Denmark, which a small region, it is not easy to choose
between bar,cafe,restaurant,fast_food, etc.

Yes, that's were the otherwise nice British English heritage starts to
be a nightmare: English people are not well known for there cooking
abilities and their language reflects that ;-) - I have eaten excellent
food cooked by English people in England, that's not the topic.

Nevertheless, I had a look at
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coffeehouse#United_Kingdom. The first
picture on this page is a café in... Paris.

And on our wiki: "amenity=cafe (café) is for a generally informal place
with sit-down facilities selling beverages and light meals and/or
snacks. This includes coffee-shops and tea shops selling perhaps tea,
coffee and cakes through to bistros selling meals with alcoholic drinks."

So a clear overlapping with bars! And it matches the definition in
France and probably in Italy.

Therefore not only people in France, Italy, or Danemark have an issue
with cafe/bar possibly others like pub.

Here I see only some possibilities: add sub-keys like
takeaway=yes/no/only cafe=yes/no/only/rare (rare for my previous Irish
pub or for junk food: if you need, do it but if possible avoid).

And A LOT of similar keys.

A lot? Then it will be tedious?

Could be, but it's NOT a need.

First on countries we have 2 default values.
currency=EUR
default_language=fr

Then when it's about a name or a fee, we don't have to write the
language or the unit as long as it's the default. Note that for those 2
keys, the values are defined by standards and nobody would think that €
would be a possible value (even if the symbol is only used for Euro).

Le 21/10/2022 à 03:48, Niels Elgaard Larsen - elgaard at agol.dk a écrit :
 > smoking=yes tells me that I do want to go there (in Denmark smoking
is illegal where food is served, but in some regions it is allowed)

So you want to say that smoking=no is the default in FR, DE... and
possibly in DK but smoking=yes in sub parts of DK.

We can already deal with that in OSM.

It could be more local (alcoholic drinks are forbidden at work in
Germany but beer in Bavaria is defined as not being an alcoholic drink).

How can we do that? With relations with type=defaults.

It's an inactive proposal, but in my honest opinion and according to the
conversation here worth to reactivate. And to refine.

https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/Defaults#Tags

Here for DK you would have:

type=defaults
name:en=legal rules for cafe, and bar in DK
note:en=locally overridden!
def:amenity=cafe;smoking=no
def:amenity=pub;smoking=no
apply_to: (DK relation)

type=defaults
name:en=legal rules for cafe, and bar in some parts of DK
note:en=overrides the default in DK!
def:amenity=cafe;smoking=yes
def:amenity=pub;smoking=yes
apply_to: (several sub-DK relations)

That way you could define what is to be expected in an average cafe,
bar... in FR, IT, GB.

Not that smoking may be related to the location in the cafe: in France
by default (i.e. without expensive filters) indoor smoking is forbidden,
outdoor is allowed.

Better support by mainstream editors would be needed.

Of course it should match the main key (don't say that in IT by default
a cafe can't be served in a cafe) and simply predefine values for
sub-keys. I think about possibility for seating, taking away...

It's used to define default speed limits, holidays... : then on
opening:hours we can use SH without giving the value each year for each POI.

Le 21/10/2022 à 03:48, Niels Elgaard Larsen - elgaard at agol.dk a écrit :
 > As a user I typically want to find food places where e.g,
 > * you can get a beer or a glass of wine with you meal.
 > * you can go out with your spouse, friends etc, sit down and have
lunch or dinner.
with_spouse=yes ;-)
But yes, got what you mean.
"good" is subjective, cuisine= is more objective and if it's a
restaurant, not a bar the probability to have cooked food is higher. No,
for me a pizzeria is not a fast food except maybe if
takeaway=only/mainly (a non existent value, isn't it ?).

Le 21/10/2022 à 16:46, steveaOSM - steveaOSM at softworkers.org a écrit :
 > "the most commonly used tags, which act as informal standards.”

"act as": exactly.

 > as I honestly do think that such dialog is (must be) an integral part
of OSM’s culture.
+ many ;-). You probably meant dialogue^^.

Jean-Yvon
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